Polish & Ukrainian intellectuals: confrontation between our nations leads to joint destruction

Collage: tsn.ua

Collage: tsn.ua 

Ukraine

Editor’s NoteBringing the historical issues into the modern politics by the current Polish leadership has deteriorated relations between two friendly neighbor countries, Poland and Ukraine.

The confrontation culminated in the adopting the bill criminalizing the denial of crimes committed by “Ukrainian nationalists and members of Ukrainian formations collaborating with the German Third Reich.”  The bill’s authors state that Ukraine is engaging in “historical politics” by seeking sources of its identity in “criminal formations and a criminal ideology of integral Ukrainian nationalism.”

Despite the political confrontation, the countries retain close economic ties, and up to 1.5 million Ukrainians currently work in Poland.

Representatives of Ukrainian and Polish civic societies made a joint appeal to fellow citizens and politicians of both countries, calling to return to politics based on a truthful dialog instead of “the dictate of only one side.” The activists remind that the confrontation between Poles and Ukrainians, often ignited by Russia, leads to the joint destruction of both nations.

Here we publish the full text of the appeal.

We, the representatives of many civic communities in Poland and Ukraine, desire to make known our protest against the continuation and escalation of confrontational politics in relations between Poland and Ukraine!

These politics ruin the endeavors of several generations of Poles and Ukrainians who strived for dialogue, cooperation, and friendship between us. The tragic intertwined history of Ukrainians and Poles in the last century, the bad memories of the policies of the Second Polish Republic regarding Polish citizens of Ukrainian heritage, the conflict, bloody for both sides, between 1939 and 1947, the anti-Ukrainian propaganda of Communist Poland and the USSR – all this should have divided us forever. But after 1989 and 1991 the impossible became possible!

At that time we jointly recognized that the collapse of communism, the rise of independent Ukraine and Poland, the painful lessons of the history of the 20th Century, and the possibility for the expansion of the European Union put before us new challenges.

But the expression, “There is no free Poland without a free Ukraine, and there is no free Ukraine without a free Poland” has acquired new significance: it proves our responsibility to the future of our countries and of all Europe – especially in overcoming our tragic historical heritage. We have recognized that the innumerable Polish and Ukrainian graves on both sides of the border could become a symbol of our shared memory, and not a basis for new conflict. We believe that they attest to the high price the people of both nations paid for freedom and independence.

Signatories of the appeal. Source: zbruc.eu

Signatories of the appeal. Source: zbruc.eu

We have our own burdensome history, but despite this, we strengthened a new partnership, a new quality of our relations! Above all, both societies, with the support of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches and of politicians, began a dialogue on the basis of standards accepted in Western Europe after 1945. We searched for that which brings our nations together and unites them, and not that which divides us; we looked for a path out of the historical pitfalls and a road far from the politicization the works of historians and educators.

We appeal above all to our fellow citizens in Poland and in Ukraine, and to our politicians, since they themselves carry the final responsibility for relations between our countries:

In relations between Poland and Ukraine, we desire to return to the politics which depend on truthful dialog, and not on the dictates of only one side. We desire policies which appeal to both the present and the future! We will become conscious of those responsibilities which fall on our shoulders and of those opportunities which stand before us!

The experience of our nations, won in the previous centuries, teaches us that each confrontation between Poles and Ukrainians, often ignited by Russia, leads to our joint destruction!

Today’s Europe is threatened by the pressure of national egotism, and above all by Russian imperialism. In these conditions it would be better for us, Poles and Ukrainians, to fight these threats together! It falls to us to build the Europe of the 21st Century together!

Signatories from Ukraine:

  • Yurii Andrukhovych, Translator of Bruno Schultz
  • Prof. Yevhen Bystrytskyi, Professor at the Institute of Philosophy of the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine.
  • Taras Vozniak, Political Scientist, editor of the independent cultural journal “Ї”
  • Mykola Horbal, Dissident, Civic Activist
  • Yevhen Hlibovsytskyi, Founder of and expert from the company pro.mova
  • Prof. Yaroslav Hrytsak, Historian, Professor of the Ukrainian Catholic University
  • The Blessed Borys Gudziak, Bishop of the Eparchy of Saint Volodymyr the Great in Paris for the Ukrainian Catholic Church in France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg and Switzerland, and the President of the Ukrainian Catholic University.
  • Orest Drul, Editor of the Internet-Journal Zbruc
  • Yevhen Zakharov, Human Rights Activist, Member of the Activist Group “1st of December”
  • Oleksandr Zinchenko, Historian, Author
  • Yosyp Zisels, Acting Vice-President of the Congress of National Communities of Ukraine, member of the Activist Group “1st of December”
  • Vakhtanh Kipiani, Journalist, Chief Editor of the project “Istorychna Pravda (Historical Truth)”
  • Heorhiy Kovalenko, Archpriest and Rector of the Open Orthodox University of the Holy Wisdom
  • Danylo Lubkivskyi, Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine (2014), Civic Activist
  • Rostyslav Luzhetskyi, Artist, Publisher
  • Andriy Liubka, Author
  • Yuriy Makarov, member of the Board of the National Public Tele-Radio Company
  • Myroslav Marynovych, Vice-Rector of the Ukrainian Catholic University, member of the Activist Group “1st of December”
  • Vitaliy Nakhmanovych, Historian, Acting Secretary of the Civil Committee for Honoring the Memory of the Victims of Babyn Yar.
  • Vitaliy Portnykov, Journalist, Co-Director of the Ukrainian-Polish Partnership Forum
  • Taras Prokhasko, Author
  • Oleh Repetskyi, General Director of the Komora Company
  • Mykola Riabchuk, Author and Publicist, President of the Ukrainian PEN Association
  • Nazar Stryhun, Actor, Director of the “Telniuk Sisters” project
  • Halia Telniuk, Singer, Poet
  • Lesia Telniuk, Composer, Singer
  • Leonid Finberh, Chief Editor of the “Spirit and Letters” publication of the Kyiv-Mohyla National University
  • Prof. Natalia Yakovenko, Historian, Professor at the Kyiv-Mohyla National University
  • Oksana Zabuzhko, Author

Signatories from Poland:

  • Edwin Bendyk, Author
  • Iza Chruślińska, Author, Civic Activist
  • Tomasz Dostatni, Dominican Priest, Author
  • Prof. Barbara Engelking, Sociologist at the Polish Academy of Sciences
  • Prof. Andrzej Friszke, Historian at the Polish Academy of Sciences
  • Prof. Irena Grudzińska-Gross, Historian of Literature at Princeton University
  • Agnieszka Holland, Director
  • Konstanty Gebert, Author
  • Krystyna Janda, Actress
  • Danuta Kuroń, Head of the Jacek Kuroń Education Foundation
  • Jarosław Kurski, Deputy Chief Editor of the Gazety Wyborczej newspaper
  • Prof. Andrzej Leder, Philosopher of Culture at the Polish Academy of Sciences
  • Prof. Andrzej Mencwel, Scientist of Culture at the University of Warsaw
  • Adam Michnik, Chief Editor of the Gazety Wyborczej newspaper
  • Andrzej Seweryn, Director of the Polish Theater of Warsaw
  • Sławomir Sierakowski, Sociologist, Chief Editor of the Krytyki Politycznej journal
  • Krzysztof Stanowski, Social Activist
  • Andrzej Stasiuk, Author
  • Monika Sznajderman, Cultural Anthropologist, Publisher
  • Olga Tokarczuk, Author
  • Prof. Joanna Tokarska-Bakir, Cultural Anthropologist, Polish Academy of Sciences
  • Petro Tyma, Historian, Head of the Association of Ukrainians in Poland
  • Prof. Anna Wolff-Powęska, Historian of Ideas at the Adam Mickiewicz University in Poznan
  • Krystyna Zachwatowicz-Wajda, Artist, Cinematographer
  • Adam Zagajewski, Poet

Written and Published the 9th of March, 2018


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Translated by: Peter Koropey
Source: Zbruč

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  • Oknemfrod

    Now this is a message I can wholeheartedly endorse. Both the Poles and Ukrainians must remember and never forget who seeks their disunity working tirelessly to pit them against each other – and do everything they can to make those evil divide-and-conquerers fail.

    • laker48

      Most of those people are just noisy communist deposits left in the Polish public life after 1989. I don’t know their Ukrainian counterparts, though.

      • Oknemfrod

        I don’t know who they are on the either side. My reaction is not to the particular personae but to the message.

        • laker48

          The massage leaves an elephant in the room. The Ukrainian government has imposed a ban on exhumations of the remains of the victims of the 1943-1945 OUN/UPA-B (Bandera faction) and local Ukrainian peasants genocide of Poles and other ethnic minorities in the Volhynia region and throughout Western Ukraine buried in hundreds unmarked burial sites.

          Almost all these sites are known to the Polish Institute of National Remembrance but the Ukrainians have blocked any exhumation attempts for over two decades except for a short time window when Yanukovych was President. Over 95% of these sites have not been subjected to exhumations and forensic archaeological investigations.

          FYI, the Polish government allows for unrestricted exhumations and forensic archaeological examinations of all suspected and unmarked burial sites of fallen UPA fighters and other killed i action partisans or civilian Ukrainian victims murdered by individual Poles or anu Polish military resistance movement on Polish territory. All Polish crimes against Ukrainians are well documented by the Polish Institute of National Remembrance and duly condemned by the Polish government and historians. Friendly mutual relations should be based on truth and mutual admission of guilt and forgiveness.

          • slavko

            A couple of years ago both the Polish and Ukrainian sides have apologized to each other for their parts played in mutual violent history. Where were you? Sleeping?

          • marek

            slavko, Poles like laker48 are always 100% right. Discussing with them is a plain waste of time. Unfortunately, people with such attitude are numerous in the ruling party Law and Justice or their supporters.

          • laker48

            And they will likely vote PiS into office in 2019, this time with a constitutional majority (2/3 plus one seat in the parliament). You cannot win with a democratically elected government any other way than at the polling stations.

          • Alex George

            Why is it likely? Partisans in a democracy are always predicting victory for the party they favour, usually by a landslide. That doesn’t create any likelihood that it will actually happen.

          • laker48

            As I’ve already stated, you know a BIG NOTHING about Poland and Poles, stupid banderite idiot!

          • Микола Данчук

            And your petty posts repeat themselves.
            I’m not a bit curious about your knowledge of Poland and Poles, very narrow minded as they are, nor your implied verbosity.
            Your lack of compassion for the people you insinuate to speak-for is atrocious. You should take a tour of Poland to see what you could do to help them, if they would have you.

          • laker48

            Dear pathetic banderite idiot kids! My late parents lived in Volhynia near Sokal, were saved by their Ukrainian neighbours from Nazi banderites in the fall of 1943 and I met their saviours many times because we kept inviting them to our place in Poland in the 1960s and 1970s. I also spent cumulatively close to two years in the now defunct Soviet Union as a liaison officer for a US corporation participating in the construction of the Orenburg gas pipeline, and travelled extensively throughout the European part of the Soviet Union, Ukraine included, in the late 1970s and 1980.

            I also visited Ukraine and RuSSia a few times, between 1995 and 2008 RuSSia, and between 1994 and 2017 Ukraine. Until my last October visit in Ukraine, I had supported the Poroshenko administration, but after a two week tour of western Ukraine and conversations with hundreds of western Ukrainians I changed my opinion about the Ukrainian kleptocracy and now fully support the Western pressure on Ukraine to reform itself. Ukraine is being destroyed from inside by Byzantine corruption of epic proportions.

            I also co-own a business in eastern Poland near Tomaszów Lubelski where we used to seasonally employ Ukrainians, but we prefered Ukrainian students from the Kharkiv and Kyiv regions who studied in Lublin.

            Since I’ve lived in Canada for almost 30 years, I also know the Ukrainian diaspora here and one of my sons even had a Ukrainian girlfriend for over a year. The diaspora also started giving up on the Poroshenko kleptocracy and is visibly divided between the old emigration from the late 19th century until the 1930s, and the small, albeit noisy banderites whose parents were saved in 1945 by Polish general Wladysław Anders who recognised Polish-speaking Ukrainians serving in the Wehrmacht and SS as Polish citizens whom they legally were, thus saving them from handing over to the Soviets by General Eisenhower.

            In summary, there won’t be any true reconciliation between Poles and Ukrainians until the 1943-1945 Volhynia and western Ukrainian genocide of Poles by the OUN/UPA-B (Bandera faction) and local Ukrainian peasants is not fully disclosed by the Ukrainian party, its victims exhumed and buried with dignity, and a Polish-Ukrainian team of reputable historians from both countries arrive at a consensus acceptable to both nations.

            Poland has fully opened its territory for Ukrainian researchers who want to exhume and forensically examine remains of Ukrainian victims of Poles, while the Ukrainian party has dug its heels and banned any exhumations of Polish victims of Ukrainian genocide, hence over 95% of their known mass burial sites in Ukraine remain untouched by Polish forensic archaeologists. The strategic cooperation of both states will likely remain unaffected, but there won’t be any real trust between the two nations.

          • Микола Данчук

            So, presenting a bigoted bio does what, exactly?
            What is pathetic is your racist attitude towards people you assume to know. More in line with RT dribble.

          • laker48

            Go to Ukraine and see by yourself if I’m not right! The Polish government should have switched to the strictly transactional relationship with Ukraine a long time ago. Today’s Ukraine is irreformable as long as different cooperatives of German and RuSSian-connectected oligarch misgovern it. Western Ukraine’s infrastructure resembles the infrastructure of SE Poland from the early 1960s. Yo cannot hide it. There’s no civic society there either. This is still a mafia state. I haven’t written a single word that isn’t true.

          • Alex George

            Well I do visit Ukraine on a fairly regular basis, and I can say that you don’t seem to know much about it.

            What is all this rubbish about “no civic society”? Do you imagine that they live in wigwams and trade by barter?

          • Микола Данчук

            You are full of yourself.

          • laker48

            You’re entitled to your own opinion, but Ukraine and Poland started approximately from the same economic bases in 1992 and Ukraine is larger and much better endowed by Mother Nature, and it had at that time the world’s second largest stash of nuclear weapons.

            In 2017, Ukraine’s GDP was less than 19% of Poland’s, in spite of major kleptocratic affairs in Poland. The audit of the 10-year misgovernment of Poland by the Civic Platform (PO) has so far resulted in close to 2000 open criminal cases against former PO politicians and at least twice as many will be likely open by the prosecutors within the next several months. Now, put your brain in gear and figure it out what’s wrong with this picture.

          • Alex George

            As I have commented on another thread, you have clearly never been anywhere near Ukraine. When you start writing fiction like “99.9% of Ukrainians speak only Ukrainian or Russian” then you give the game away.

          • MichaelA

            i am still waiting for any proof that laker has ever been to ukraine

          • laker48

            You’re nobody, a RuSSian troll posting 30 “comments” on an average working day and I owe you nothing, zilch, naught, poor Bozo the clown..

          • MichaelA

            yes you are a russian troll posting 30 comments on an average working day
            and i am still waiting for any proof that you have ever been to ukraine

          • Alex George

            I would be interested to read comments by others who do visit Ukraine or live there, particularly in view of Laker’s post below, where he claims there is “no civil society” there. Most of my visits are around Kharkiv but I have been to Lviv and it sounds to me like he is lying through his teeth.

          • Микола Данчук

            My comments are not “Private” and I have nothing to hide (It is my real name).
            My family is very expansive in Ukraine (mainly the right-side of Dnipro) and some still in Poland.
            What I write is what I have lived and worked, as they see life and dream for their children.

          • Alex George

            Thanks Mikola. I only visit occasionally, but enough to know that Laker is just making up whatever comes into his head. Thank you for the confirmation.

          • http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/ Bu Buccaneer

            Could you please pick two of the least legitimate points by laker48’s, excluding the bio?

          • http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/ Bu Buccaneer

            Are there any claims on the Ukrainian side that Poland in fact does not accommodate historical research on it’s territory?

          • laker48

            Nothing official, but some extreme Bandera followers come with such claims about the part of Poland east of the San River. Ukrainians have the well-established, Polish government funded Association of Ukrainians in Poland and they publish anti-Polish school textbooks and newspapers on the Polish taxpayers’ dime. Almost all Poles don’t have an axe to grind with Ukrainians and the only bones of contention are the 1943-1945 Volhynia and western Ukraine genocide of som 100 to 150 thousand of Poles, the Ukrainian exhumation ban and the reluctance of the Ukrainians to admit guilt and acknowledge the scope of this genocide that was relatively small in comparison with German and Soviet genocide of Poles, but both the Germans and the Soviets acknowledged them.

            The Ukrainian genocide was carried out with exceptional cruelty that can be only compared with cruelties committed by the Japanese army in China. Also relations between Poles and Germans and Poles and RuSSians are still very edgy underneath. All Polish governments have supported Ukraine almost unconditionally since it proclaimed its independence in 1992 and Poland was the first state to recognise it, while Canada was second eight hours later. This board is infested with paid Poroshenko trolls who likely don’t represent real Ukrainian people and I’ve already blocked two or three of them. http://volhyniamassacre.eu/

          • http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/ Bu Buccaneer

            As I have expressed many times on euromaidan and as many Ukrainians concurred – we should focus on eliminating wackos in our own yards respectively. Do you agree? (a follow-up question pending)

          • laker48

            The main problem seems to lay with the Poroshenko and previous kleptocratic and corrupt to the core Ukrainian governments trying to shift the blame on its neighbours for rendering the country near bankrupt, and having known for themselves that it would have sufficed to stop stealing. Four years after the MaIdan, the revolution of dignity is being hijacked by the Poroshenko-led cooperative of kleptocratic oligarchs and Ukraine is a failed state again.

            Beating the drum of the OUN/UPA-B, Bandera, Shukhevych and other Nazi war criminals is an excellent way to erect a wall between the Russian-speaking eastern Ukraine and and the Ukrainian-speaking, intensively russified by the Soviets western part of the country that sincerely hates RuSSia, RuSSians and the RuSSian language.

            FYI, the OUN/UPA and its Bandera faction are considered mass murderers and Nazi war criminals throughout all Russian-speaking Ukraine that constitutes one third of the Ukrainian nation. If we add the so called Surzhyk that is a mix of Ukrainian and Russian spoken in eastern and southern Ukraine, we’ll arrive at close to 50% of Ukrainians despising Bandera and his murderous thugs.

            As far as Poland is concerned, Ukrainians are very well received and treated there, but most Poles don’t trust them and the older segment of the population remembering the 1943-1945 Volhynia and western Ukrainian genocide and their next generations simply fera them for a reason. These two links may help you understand the problem. I, for one, don’t have an axe to grind with Ukrainians, as my late parents were saved from the murderous Bandera thugs in the fall of 1943, albeit many of their compatrions weren’t so fortunate. http://volhyniamassacre.eu/
            https://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2013/07/polish-ukrainian-relations

          • Alex George

            Yes, I can easily do 50 or 60 posts at a time, particularly when responding to trolls. As you would be aware from UA Today before you were banned there, there are many with higher rates of posting than mine.

            And you know perfectly well that each of my posts is carefully thought out and expressed. Such as on this thread where I pointed out that your prediction of what would happen in the next Polish election is worthless.

          • laker48

            LOL! UA Today went belly-up quite a long time ago and the balance of your bovine blather is exactly what is; the bovine blather. You’re a paid Poroshenko trollie and this sums up the whole issue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55LoMZeJlSQ

          • Alex George

            Funny but it seems to be very much alive and kicking. And you were banned from it, with good reason it would seem.

            As I have just written on another thread, you have proved to anyone with knowledge of Ukraine that you have never been there.

            I therefore suspect that your comments about Poland are just as worthless.

          • slavko

            True. Many were predicting a Clinton win and Trump won instead.
            Btw, we see now his true colors that of a Kremlin Gremlin. :)

          • Alex George

            I agree.

            I would also be interested in reading comments by anyone who has been to Ukraine recently, about Laker’s post below where he claims to have visited western Ukraine and that there is “no civic society” there.

            I think he may have overreached himself at this point – it doesn’t accord with my own observations or with comments from many others.

          • http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/ Bu Buccaneer

            I’m a long time EP supporter and to be honest I find laker48’s comments quite sensible. I think if you guys address his points it will be more useful for those following the comments.

            A question. A top-level reconciliation did happen at least once in the recent years between Poland and Ukraine. Is anyone denying the fact? Then there’s the fact about the exhumation ban on the part of Ukraine and the fact on criminalization on Volhyn masacre denial. Can we at least establish those?

          • Oknemfrod

            >The message leaves an elephant in the room … There won’t be a real reconciliation between the two nations until all Volhynia genocide Polish victims are exhumed and properly buried.<

            It's not my elephant – I'm all for the exhumation and proper burial of all the victims, etc. But I see no reason why a reconciliation isn't possible before it happens. Those on the either side who have no desire to reconcile once and for all can always find another tit for another tat in the centuries of Polish-Ukrainian history and keep bickering forever to the sheer delight of Moscow.

          • laker48

            I toured western Ukraine for two weeks last October. There’s no animosity between Poles and Ukrainian on the grassroot level. All Ukrainians I met were struggling to make it through one more day and didn’t give Bandera, Lebed, Shukhevych and other Ukrainian Nazi war criminals a dead rat’s arse. The only small pockets of western Ukrainian ultra nationalism I came across were in Volodymyr Volynsky, Pavlivka (former Poryck), Lutsk and Lviv. We saw very few and far between black-and-red OUN/UPA flags along out over 2000 km long route, all on burial sites of fallen UPA fighters.

            It’s the Ukrainian oligarchic kleptocracy, now led by Poroshenko, that plays the Bandera card in order to divide Ukrainians, as the divided nation is easy to steal from. People we talked with sincerely despised Poroshenko and his cooperative of kleptocrats for different reasons. FYI, Bandera and other western Ukrainian Nazi “heroes” are considered war criminals throughout most of eastern and southern Ukraine. https://www.politico.eu/article/the-dirty-dozen-12-people-who-ruined-ukraine/

            This is a political game fed by the Kremlin and most Ukrainian oligarchs deeply rooted in the Kremlin kleptocracy. The Ukrainian political system is still a kind of the Soviet Union Bis. There are two to even three million Ukrainians, mosttly from western Ukraine, working, studying and living in Poland, and they’re treated well and fairly by both the Poles and the Polish governments. They remit to Ukraine between two and three billion dollars a year just via bank transfers, and this constitutes more than three percent of Ukraine’s GDP.

            I don’t believe that the Polish government and and Polish historians will change their stance on fundamental issues of the 1943-1945 Volhynia and western Ukrainian genocide of Poles by UPA fighters and local peasants. The OUN/UPA-B (Bandera faction) wasn’t even 10,000 strong in 1943, even after the mass desertion of the Ukrainian SS Galizien unit, and was one of three OUN faction that promoted, planned and meticulously executed that genocide. Here are some links to documentary footage partially recorded by German army soldiers during WW2 in Ukraine, and some most recently. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuG3SygQHlk

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4nxPD6Xess

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKUNSCDk4x8

          • slavko

            Judging from your comments and hateful insinuations you make the impression of being a Fascist Pole or a Kremlin boy toy. Perhaps you should consider professional help for your obsession with negativity.

      • marek

        People like Andrzej Stasiuk, Konstanty Gebert, Andrzej Leder are communist deposits? Apparently you don’t now much about what you write here.

        • laker48

          “Most” doesn’t mean “all”. Please, read with understanding!

          • Alex George

            Why is that fact alone relevant? There are many officials in many eastern European countries who have a background with the previous regimes. That fact alone doesn’t mean they were communist sympathisers now or then.

          • slavko

            True. People did not have much of a choice if they didn’t tow the party line. A really interesting book that describes life under the influence of the Gremlins is a book by a Czech author titled “The Unbearable Lightness of Being”. He describes life of a doctor when the Kremlin was imposing its “friendly” occupation of Czechoslovakia around 1968. Basically, if you want to make money then tow the party line. But if you don’t… well then there’s window washing.

          • laker48

            You won’t know this unless you lived in Poland under communists. The problem with them is that most were so called secret cooperators of the Communist Secret State Security Services (SB). The Polish Institute of National Remembrance publicised all their secret files after PiS had won the elections.

          • Alex George

            You haven’t said anything that isn’t already on wikipedia.

            My comment still stands: There are officials throughout eastern European countries who have a background with the previous regimes. That fact alone doesn’t mean they were communist sympathisers, now or then.

            On the other hand, its a well-known Kremlin tactic to hypocritically use previous associations with communist regimes to discredit those who speak out against current Kremlin imperialism.

    • Ihor Dawydiak

      Yes indeed, Oknemfrod. Those individuals and groups who espouse extremism whether it be from the far left or the far right or otherwise only advocate discord regardless of whether it is intended or not. In that view, these extremists and not just in Poland, Russia and Ukraine but also throughout Europe, only feed the the imperialist and chauvinist policies of Vladimir Putin, his Administration and like minded individuals. Extremists also use unbridled nationalism as opposed to patriotism as well as any type of social discord to promote their agendas which almost always ends up in isolationism that in turn promotes the opposite of free markets and the global society in which we live. As such, extremism should be rejected. It is a road to nowhere.

  • slavko

    The following highlights from the article are noteworthy:

    “The experience of our nations, won in the previous centuries, teaches us
    that each confrontation between Poles and Ukrainians, often ignited by
    Russia, leads to our joint destruction!”

    “Today’s Europe is threatened by the pressure of national egotism, and
    above all by Russian imperialism. In these conditions it would be better
    for us, Poles and Ukrainians, to fight these threats together! It falls
    to us to build the Europe of the 21st Century together!”

    • zorbatheturk

      Damn right!

  • laker48

    Calling most of these postcommunist deposits “Polish intellectuals” is a gross overstatement. They’re not even the most outer fringe of the Polish intellectual circles. They’re either orphans after the so called Polish People’s Republic or progeniture of such orphans, most of whom were brought into Poland on Soviet bayonets and tanks in 1945.

    • slavko

      Still their message is a message of declaring animosities over and peaceful coexistence between two nations. You cannot negate that.

    • Alex George

      Translated, this means you don’t like them because they aren’t on the loonie fringe. I suppose that’s valid as your perspective.

      More importantly, they are people who love Poland. You could learn something from them.

      • laker48

        And you should learn more about Poland and Poles before clapping your piehole again.

        • Alex George

          Really? So far you have demonstrated very little knowledge about Poland apart from what can be learned from wikipedia. And you make it obvious that your politics are on the loonie fringe.

          As soon as you are challenged with detail on any issue, you revert to abuse. Which is an indication of lack of arguments in response.

          • laker48

            Arogancki i tępy banderowski chuju! Nigdy nie będziesz wiedział o Polsce więcej, niż ja wiedziałem przed pójściem do szkoły. A teraz DO BUDY, banderowska swołocz! You’ve been addressed in my native tongue, stupid banderite idiot!

          • slavko

            There ya go. For the lack of an intelligent reply you spew poison just like another rude Kremlin Gremlin.

          • MichaelA

            google translate

          • laker48

            There are some slang expressions Google won’t translate. “przemądrzały, banderowsko-szkopsko-kcapski kutasino”. Good luck with your translation, żałosna gnido dworska Putlera! Tak żałosnego cymbała dawno nie spotkałem. :)

          • Alex George

            And my question still stands – what proof is there that you have any significant knowledge about Poland? I agree with the comment about google translate, or for that matter you could have simply copied the words from one of the right-wing extremist Polish websites.

            You aren’t putting forward any evidence at all, but you do appear to be trying to distract attention from the point I actually raised, i.e. your lack of any particular knowledge.

          • laker48

            Prymitywny, banderowski cymbale! Twoje spekulacje na temat Polski nie mają żadnego uzasadnienia w polskiej rzeczywistości, nazistowski trolliku. Spróbuj to prawidłowo odczytać! Żaden z was, szkopsko-kacapskich sukinsynów, nigdy w życiu do końca nie zrozumie Polski i Polaków. Mam dla was wierszyk krążący po Polsce w czasach sowieckiej okupacji:
            “Jak powiadał stary Góral,
            Polska będzie aż po Ural.
            Za Uralem będą Chiny,
            Was nie będzie, skurwysyny.”
            Dr. George Friedman is of a similar opinion (p. 138, Poacher’s Paradise). http://www.mysearch.org.uk/website1/pdf/715.2.pdf
            Wasza Ukraina wsrała sia po kolina.

          • Alex George

            And now you are just trolling. I am sure you understood my question, and you also understood that typing some foreign words did not in any way answer it.

            It is important that anyone who reads this page understands that you have been avoiding answering my question, which in turn means that they cannot trust anything else you write.

          • MichaelA

            and yet more google translate…

          • laker48

            My sincere words of sympathy, as my post in the Polish language cannot be properly Google-translated. Jesteś aroganckim, choć umiarkowanie inteligentnym idiotą wykształconym ponad poziom twojej inteligencji..

          • MichaelA

            and yet more google translate

          • Alex George

            How does that post prove it is your native tongue?

            My point stands, that so far you have demonstrated very little knowledge about Poland, except what you could learn from wikipedia or right-wing extremist websites. Spouting some Polish which you could have got from anywhere is no proof of anything.

    • Микола Данчук

      I guess we all can surmise that you would never be associated with “Polish intellectuals” or any intellectual for that matter.
      The “Dark Side” spurning the darkness?

      • laker48

        Well, You’re free to “surmise” whatever you wish. So long! :)

        • MichaelA

          you keep claiming things like this
          yet you seem to know very little about ukraine or poland
          perhaps you are getting your information from websites in moscow?

          • laker48

            Well, good you know it all, genius. :)

          • MichaelA

            thank you for admitting it

          • laker48

            Are you so helplessly stupid, or what, “genius”? Your stupidity and arrogance are beyond the wildest stretch of imagination.

          • MichaelA

            no i am not
            i just recognise you for what you are

          • laker48

            A sigh!:) Where are the limits of your stupidity?

          • MichaelA

            extremely small
            dont blame me because you made it obvious what you are

        • Микола Данчук

          For someone who can not remember previous conversations, I have no desire in repeating myself.
          I lived and worked with them, not toured them as spectacles in a zoo.

          As to a civic society, maybe you should ask how is it that there are Ukrainians, considering everything you presume to know?
          And I have dealt with many who never answer questions but demand their questions be answered. So, no, not on your stupid terms.

          • laker48

            And your point is? If you claim to know Ukraine, you should know that 99.9% of Ukrainians don’t speak any other language but Ukrainian and RuSSian and are prone to local and RuSSian propaganda. Ukraine, as society, is half century behind Poland as far as its social development is concerned. It’ll take at least a generation to at least partially bridge this gap. So long! Heading for a ski hill.

          • Микола Данчук

            You are nothing more then a one trick pony that would rather poop on a potential friend then acknowledge how boring your one trick is. Don’t wipe out on the bunny slop.

          • laker48

            So you don’t have to read my comments, let alone answer them. Cheers!

          • Микола Данчук

            Good for you.

          • Alex George

            Mikola, see my comment above. He clearly has never been anywhere near Ukraine.

          • Микола Данчук

            He may have been on a tour as a pompous arrogant dolt but that also reflects his overall attitude.

            What I would add to the “English” issue is that there have been and are several programs that students go in internships to England, USA and Canada with Law firms/Financial Institutions, not only to improve their language ability but also learn western (Democratic) ways in doing business. This has been going on for over 15 years that I know of and has increased in the past 4 years. The students do come back and are a major force in todays civic society.

          • Alex George

            “If you claim to know Ukraine, you should know that 99.9% of Ukrainians don’t speak any other language but Ukrainian and RuSSian”

            Well that settles it for me – Laker has never been to Ukraine. Even meeting people who have recently moved from Ukraine should have taught you something.

            How do you think all these Americans, Germans, French, Brits, Chinese etc do business there?

          • laker48

            The Ukrainian population is over 40 million, and 0.1% boils down to over 40,000 speakers of English congregated mainly in Kharkiv, Kyiv and Odessa, bacause in Western Ukraine even in posh hotels in Lutsk and Lviv we always started conversations in English, and found very few and far between people able to speak the language on a basic level. Most spoke good Polish, though, as on average 50% or more business they generated from Polish tourists. You don’t seem to have a good command of math. Your arrogance is limitless.

          • Alex George

            You have never been to Ukraine, and you have just proved it yet again. Surveys indicate that around 25% speak English . That accords with my own observations – far more than that speak English in the larger cities to some degree.

            I could agree that you may have been there about 20 years ago – what you are describing may well have been so then.

            By the way, approximately 3% of Ukraine speaks another language as their native tongue, i.e. not Russian or Ukrainian, so you couldn’t even get that right.

            You do not hesitate to lie whenever it suits you. Anyone reading these posts should bear that in mind when reading anything that Laker writes, on any topic.

          • laker48

            You may be right to a degree. We asked a manager of a posh Lviv hotel why his staff don’t speak English. His answer was quite surprising, as he said that they tried to organise English courses for their personnel and those who succeeded immediately left Ukraine for Poland or the Baltic States. You’re right about eastern Ukraine, as I was there last time back in September 2008 in transit on my way to RuSSia.

          • laker48

            This is a Ukrainian sourcen and it fully corroborates my empirical impressions. https://112.international/opinion/do-you-speak-english-the-reality-of-learning-english-in-ukraine-3243.html

          • Alex George

            You should read the source, because it supports my argument, not yours.

            It completely knocks on the head your absurd comment about 0.1% and is entirely consistent with the figure I stated above.

          • laker48

            Once more: 0.1% constitutes 400 thousand proficient speakers of English PERMANENTLY LIVING in Ukraine, what is consistent with both my observations. They’re likely congregated in big cities, Lutsk and Lviv are for sure not among them.

          • Alex George

            Once more: 25% constitutes 11 million+ Ukrainians who speak English to some degree, which is a far more realistic number.

            Lets not forget what you wrote which started this mini-thread: “If you claim to know Ukraine, you should know that 99.9% of Ukrainians don’t speak any other language but Ukrainian and RuSSian”.

          • laker48

            You must be totally delusional. Go to Ukraine and make a two ot three week tour through small towns and villages! There’s no way that even a million of Ukrainians PERMANENTLY LIVING in Ukraine speaks even the most basic English. I tried to start conversations with servers and bartenders in English in bars and restaurants in posh hotels in Lutsk, Lviv, Ivano Frankivsk, Drohobych and Striy with basically no avail and only one front desk clerk in a posh hotel in Lviv came up with really good conversational English. All of them understood Polish and many were perfectly fluent in the language.

            BTW, your number of 11 million plus Ukrainians speaking English on a basic level testifies to your utter ignorance in the field of real life in Ukraine, as you’d probably not be able to find that many speaking English people of Ukrainian extraction in the Ukrainian diaspora throughout the globe and Ukraine itself combined. No point in arguing with you. You’re blocked.

          • Alex George

            Its not me saying that its 25%, but a number of other observers and surveys. You just can’t handle reasoned argument and facts.

            There is no real doubt about the figures – your alleged experiences in small villages notwithstanding. Try talking to young people or business people in the cities you mentioned, not to mention Kyiv or Odessa, or even in Kharkiv. You will have a different experience, provided you are polite and respectful.

            Now once again, I would like to highlight your assertion above which started this: “If you claim to know Ukraine, you should know that 99.9% of Ukrainians don’t speak any other language but Ukrainian and RuSSian”. Utterly absurd.

            And no, you haven’t blocked me. You just don’t have anything to say that can refute me.

  • laker48

    Poland keps prosecuting this alleged Ukrainian Nazi war criminal. Let’s hope he’ll be extradited in a timely manner. https://www.voanews.com/a/doctors-examine-us-man-sought-poland-nazi-case/4300652.html

  • MichaelA

    good to see there are some intelligent people like this in poland and ukraine who care about their countries and do not just give in to putins propaganda
    most of the disputes between poland and ukraine seem to originate from kremlin provocateurs

    • laker48

      These “intellectuals” seem not to notice that there’s no parity between Poland and Ukraine, courtesy of Ukrainian kleptocrats. Ukraine, with its GDP 19% of Poland’s and with Ukrainians working in Poland remitting in 2017 $3,84 billion (4.12% of Ukraine’s GDP https://economics.unian.info/10044392-poland-says-ukrainian-workers-transfer-about-3-84-bln-home-in-2017.html), is all stink no cheese.

      Ukraine has become again a bottomless pit nobody sane will throw into good money after bad. Poland may substitute Ukrainian gastarbeiters with the Belarusians, Moldovans and Georgians, while Ukrainians won’t be able to work elsewhere in the Schengen zone. Politics is an incessant and merciless fight for realising states’ national interests, not charitable activity, and strength plays a significant part in it. I’m in favour of a transactional Polish-Ukrainian relationship.

      • MichaelA

        who said anything about parity
        youve missed the point ivan
        as always
        they love their countries and see no need to fight just because putin and his agents want them to
        yes
        compared to their opponents they are intellectuals
        what you are in favour of is irrelevant to anyone in poland or ukraine

        • laker48

          Most of them love Merkel and Putin, and the money of the Adenauer Foundation financed in 95% by the Germany.

          • MichaelA

            if they loved putin they wouldnt be saying what they are saying
            instead they are clearly opposed to putin
            and his plans to create strife between ukraine and poland

          • laker48

            They love Mackerel and she holds under the table hands with Putler. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10155240089818479&set=a.10150192344183479.309966.758088478&type=3&theater

            It’s the fight for dominance over Central and Eastern Europe. If the Central and Eastern Europeans win, they will dominate this area in the alliance with the US. If they lose, the region will become a GGerman-RuSSian condominium.

          • MichaelA

            what baloney
            merkel is one of the strongest politicians against putin
            if these intellectuals loved putin they wouldnt be saying what they are saying
            instead they are clearly opposed to putin
            and his plans to create strife between ukraine and poland
            the real danger to eastern europe are the neo-fascists who are putins allies
            that is why you attack these polish patriots because you love putin

          • laker48

            This paradigm still holds and Mackerel is a serious politician. She knows that the Three Seas Initiative, the Via Carpatia, the Visegrad Group and the US Army and Navy east of the Oder River will ruin this co carefully constructed project. https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/article/concept_of_mitteleuropa
            Never judge a book by its cover!

          • MichaelA

            you have no idea what the usa supports or what germany or russia or poland wants
            what i wrote is the truth and you are unable to refute it:
            1. merkel is one of the strongest politicians against putin
            2. if these intellectuals loved putin they wouldnt be saying what they are saying
            3. instead they are clearly opposed to putin and his plans to create strife between ukraine and poland
            4. the real danger to eastern europe are the neo-fascists like you who are putins allies and attack these polish patriots

          • laker48

            And they lived happily ever after …