NGOs worldwide call upon Ukrainian authorities to stop persecuting anti-corruption activists

In 2014, this anti-corruption T-Shirt campaign was launched in Ukraine. Photo: life.pravda.ua

In 2014, this anti-corruption T-Shirt campaign was launched in Ukraine. Photo: life.pravda.ua 

News

NGOs from Europe, USA, and other countries call upon the Ukrainian authorities to stop persecuting anti-corruption activists in Ukraine. This is stated in the open letter signed by 52 civic organizations, published by the Ukrainian Human Rights Information Center.

The authors express their concern about the restrictive legislation requiring activists to disclose their personal assets, criminal investigations and smear campaigns against anti-corruption organizations and activists, as well as physical attacks against individuals and a lack of effective investigations in such cases.

“We call upon the Ukrainian authorities to immediately take all necessary measures to reverse these highly disturbing developments,” the signatories wrote.

In March 2017, Ukrainian President Poroshenko amended Ukraine’s existing law “On Countering Corruption.” The amendments oblige anti-corruption activists to submit public electronic declarations of property status (е-declarations) on par with state officials, despite not receiving state funds. Previously this requirement only applied to the highest state offi­cials, MPs, public servants and judges. Moreover, individuals who provide any services to an “anti-corruption civic or­ganization”, are re­quired to submit e-declarations.

“Due to the vagueness of the law’s wording, it could be arbitrarily applied to harass specific individuals. Since the Law’s adoption, it has had a restraining, discouraging ef­fect on civil society working in the area of countering corruption,” the appeal notes.

Read more: Supporting transparency or fighting it? New law on assets declarations for NGOs raises scandal in Ukraine

 

As well, the signatories of the appeal mention their concern about a series of recent criminal proceedings against NGOs on fabricated or improper charges. In particular, they name the raid on the Charitable Fund “Patients of Ukraine” and the accusations against it and two organizations of alleged misappropriation of funds to finance the so-called “Luhansk People’s Republic” and “Donetsk People’s Republic.”

 

Read more: Ukrainian human right coalition condemns government attacks on NGOs under “Kremlin agent” pretext

As well, the open letter notes the recent criminal proceedings instituted against the heads of the Anti-Corruption Action Centre, warning that the anti-corruption activists believe that information collected during the investigation will later be used in a smear campaign against them, and noting that defamatory materials have already been published to discredit the members of the Anti-Corruption Action Centre, Vitaliy Shabunin and Oleksandra Ustinova.

Physical attacks and lack of effective investigations

As well, the open letter takes note of two recent attacks on Evhen Lisichkin and Dmytro Bulakh, anti-corruption activists from Kharkiv, who were beaten up in August-September 2017. While the police began investigating these crimes, the preliminary classification of the attack as “hooliganism” is inappropriate, the open letter stresses, and does not provide sufficient protection to anti-corruption activists, who are most exposed and at risk.

“The state has an obligation to provide protection and an effective remedy for persons who have been victims of a human rights violation. The state has also a duty to conduct prompt and impartial investigations of alleged violations of human defenders’ rights, including anti-corruption activists. Ukraine has obliged to uphold these standards as a signatory of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, as well as a member of the Organisation for Cooperation and Security in Europe (OSCE) as well as the Council of Europe,” the signatories stress.

On 23 March 2017, the Ukrainian Parliament passed a controversial law requiring anti-corruption activists to submit electronic declarations revealing their assets. On March 27, the president of Ukraine signed amendments to the law after a meeting with public activists. Then, he said he would propose to amend the points of the document that are being criticized.

The Presidential Administration reported that since the obligation for NGO workers to submit electronic declarations only comes into forces starting from 2018, the parties agreed to set up a working group to work out the agreed amendments.

The changes adopted by the Verkhovna Rada in March were actively criticized; in particular, the international non-governmental organization on combating corruption Transparency International urged the Ukrainian authorities to cancel them.

In July, President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko submitted to the Verkhovna Rada a bill (No. 6674) regarding the abolition of e-declaration of anti-corruption public organizations, but MPs have not yet considered the draft law.

Tags: , , ,

  • Микола Данчук

    Anti-corruption must be Ukraine’s priority in hand with Judicial and rule of law reforms. We can not afford going backwards. If Poroshenko screws this up, what else will go wrong? Ukraine must move forward!

    • AmounRah

      ” If Poroshenko screws this up”
      If?
      He is already hiding taxes and income from Ukraine….the country that he is leading and the country that he is starving and robbing.

      • Микола Данчук

        Don’t worry, Poroshenko is not a “God”, Ukrainians will vote him out when he screws up. It doesn’t take much for the people to express their dissatisfaction, it’s not Russia.

        • Ihor Dawydiak

          Most kremtrolls, and in particular those who try to hide their activities along with adding their drivel on this website (such as Amoun Durak), could care less about Poroshenko or in any matters relating to Ukraine or the Ukrainian people. Their primary purpose (in all fairness) is to put some food on the table (it doesn’t matter if it is rotten Russian cabbage with fish heads even if an eye is missing) or in the case of those who are relatively wealthy (such as janitors, toilet cleaners, etc.), a bottle of single use rot gut vodka would be more than sufficient which they sometimes share with their inbred cousins at some dilapidated bar. In return, all that is required is their registration with their local kremtroll factory and proof of some derogatory nonsense posted to a designated Ukrainian website. Sound familiar?

        • AmounRah

          “It doesn’t take much for the people to express their dissatisfaction, it’s not Russia.
          ….?
          So….a civil war, thousands dead, gangs running amok, lying to get into the office, lying while in the office, robbing of the country, privatizing and selling of socially owner factories, riddling the country and drowning it with debt…is not yet “much” ?

          • Микола Данчук

            Such an imagination you have, or are you still celebrating the Bolshevik revolution?
            There are thousands dead already but we can thank Putin for that, or you don’t see it that way?
            Can you explain why you are not horrified by what has befallen the Russian Federation?
            Or is it that you only get compensated for ridiculing Ukraine?

          • AmounRah

            “Or is it that you only get compensated for ridiculing Ukraine”
            Since you have mentioned this, am I to assume to that you get compensated for ridiculing Russia? Or am I speaking to someone who is oblivious to or is anti to any objective opinion?
            If it is the former…good luck. Ukrainians have to make money somehow (we can probably thank Putin for that too, and not the person actually running Ukraine, right?)
            If it is the latter, I would rather avoid having a debate with someone who is bordering religious level fanaticism.

          • Микола Данчук

            So, that would be the extent of your comprehension of the list of questions?
            And yes, you’re full of assumptions (be they literal or hypothetical) which would negate any objectivity in your ability of forming an opinion.
            In as avoiding having a debate, that would be dependent on your comprehension of what institutes a debate. A review of your posts would be highly limiting your view point and for all intense an purpose would only reflect your shortcomings.

          • AmounRah

            That was my reply to *one* of your posts, I do not sit at the computer whole day everyday replying to Disqus comments, slow the f- down dude and please trace it back if you can not keep track.

            I see you are trying to use big words, REALLY trying.
            This emotional, all-out, tog-o-war ….thin…. that you are trying to do here, is not intimidating in the slightest and will not work. Sorry.
            “Attacking and trying to discredit the poster” troll strategy is not going to work either, sorry.

            “And yes, you’re full of assumptions” ….as a person who is trying to come off as intelligent……..please tell me you see the irony of you writing this to me….

            “In as avoiding having a debate, that would be dependent on your comprehension of what institutes a debate.”
            My “comprehension” of “what institutes a debate” is that a person makes a post, then another person *DEBATES* the things that are written with their opinions or facts. My “comprehension” does not include someone like you (as you have said) assuming things about me and actually avoiding the debate, like you are doing, with personal attacks when I made *none* towards you.

            As I have said in my previous post, which was reply to ONE of your posts:
            “I would rather avoid having a debate with someone who is bordering religious level fanaticism” Choice is yours and believe you me, I will not be upset at the slightest if we do not continue.

          • laker48

            I’ve read tens of posts of yours. You preach your prejudice and spread your ignorance in both RuSSian and Ukrainian matters. Neither RuSSia nor Ukraine is even comparable with western democracies and they won’t be for at least a generation from now. If Ukraine doesn’t reform itself, it will collapse and disintegrate within single years after the inevitable collapse and disintegration of the fascist RuSSian Federation. The war in Donbas and illegal annexation of Crimea by RuSSia are for Ukraine blessings in disguise, giving it time to reflect on itself and reform. Both RuSSia and Ukraine are ticking time bombs, but Ukraine still stands very good chances to reform itself and become a democratic country but, unfortunately, not under the present government or another group of oligarchs selling it under the table to Germany and RuSSia.

          • Микола Данчук

            “I do not sit at the computer whole day everyday replying to Disqus comments” – that is a lie due to your relentless posts.

            “I am more befallen” – shows your lack of comprehension of the English language.

            “I see you are trying to use big words, REALLY trying.” – no I’m not trying anything other then to present my thoughts in a clear and precise manner.

            My presumptions of your comprehension was in fact not a personal attack but a researched assessment of your borderline narcissistic rhetoric. And you are one I would never believe!

          • AmounRah

            “My presumptions of your comprehension was in fact not a personal attack
            but a researched assessment of your borderline narcissistic rhetoric.”

            LMAO

          • Микола Данчук

            Limited vocabulary?

          • AmounRah

            Oh man, definitely. Yup, that’s it, you got it buddy. *golf clap*

          • Микола Данчук

            I’m not one for the fairway so “meaningless” as everything else you come up with.
            Unless your trying to admit that clap has infected your brain!

          • AmounRah

            Oh absolutely. Every-single-thing. Yup.
            You got it.
            Oh man, please, more personal and derogatory comments, don’t stop, please.

          • Микола Данчук

            Derogatory doesn’t make it any less true, does it, in your case anyway?

          • AmounRah

            THERE it is !
            hahahahaha

            rinse and repeat buddy, rinse and repeat.

          • Микола Данчук

            So now, you feel victimized or would that reflect a guilt complex of ignorance?
            Do you think that deflecting will in any way advance your point of debate?

          • AmounRah

            Oh my god! Please throw more things that are writing to me personally while completely omitting the original message. PLEASE keep it going, it is just not the same without it.
            I am SOOOO totaly deflecting the debate by taking personal jabs. oh man, how did you EVER catch me! You are like an amazing detective.

            God I wish I was as cool as you….

          • Микола Данчук

            Do not use Gods name in vain.
            Envy is your cross to bear!

            :
            Creating your own narrative does not exempt your misrepresentation of reality.

          • MichaelA

            ha ha but here you still are

          • AmounRah

            Someone has to debunk the B S otherwise we have a bunch of fanatics

          • Fortranz

            @laker48:disqus
            @ihordawydiak:disqus
            @Scradje:disqus
            His purpose here is simple Микола Данчук, he is trying to sow discord, disparagement and distrust among Ukrainians [and Americans] for all government institutions of the Ukraine. Russian trolls like him believe that they can speak to the despair that Ukrainians fell when the government doesn’t move quickly enough on reforms and cause them to rebel against it.

            What I find fascinating about this particular Russian troll is this:

            1. He lies about being a Canadian.
            2. He lies about being in the employ of Russia to spread Russian State Media propaganda.
            3. He not only posts here on Euromaidan but also on uawire and BloomburgView. [BloomburgView is an American news site].
            4. He is fully versed in all current RT [Russian State Media] propaganda narrative on the Ukraine.
            5. He accuses anyone who doesn’t hold his views of being ignorant, hysterical or fanatical.
            6. He only answers questions with sophistry, ad hominem or changes the subject of discussion.
            7. After doing what I say in 6 he then declares that he can’t debate with you and that he has a superior argument for his views.

            Lastly, I think he is another Russian toll I have debated with for many years now posting now under this AmounRah name here. As yet who else he might be posting as I can’t confirm. I’ll keep studying him and will know soon what other names the troll posts under.

          • laker48

            The Dwarf spends billions of dollars on not only Petersburg factory’s Olgino trolls who are cheap, but his agents also hire sometimes high end Western PR companies and prostitute journalists who work for Sputnik or RT in different Western countries. These people flood the web and other media with trolling messages composed in line with Kremlin troll manuals.

          • Fortranz

            Yep, this one here is actually a network of trolls I think, working for St. Petersburg, but not all the members of this network are in Russia. My guess is that some are University students living in the West. Seems they all have access to the same handle names and change who is using what handle over and over. And yeah, flood the social media with Russian State Media propaganda narrative composed by RT, Sputnik etc is clearly the strategy. All you have to do is take a look at the Disqus comment boards in BloombergView on Leonid Bershidsky articles to see the network horde at work.

            Something interesting to note to you here laker48 is that this horde of trolls at BloomburgView recently was payed a visit by what seems to me to be a Chief troll. This guy went right after me, Brent, veth and you as well. He said he wanted to have us all arrested for propagating hate speech on Russians. Seems were making an impression on St. Petersburg that’s getting under their skin. What do you think of that?

          • laker48

            If you mean that “cowboybob” character introducing himself as a country lawyer from Texas, he’s more of an uneducated country bumpkin and useful idiot than a professional troll. He tries to hold himself out as an eco terrorist or other kind of “Greenpeacer” and keeps spreading idiotic messages. He doesn’t make an impression of even being a paralegal or a jailhouse lawyer. He’s totally phoney. I also doubt English is his first language. BTW, Bloomberg View is quite tolerant and they’ve even taken out some word filters, so you can write words such as “Nazi” or “bullshit” without having your post automatically filtered out.

          • Fortranz

            No it wasn’t cowboybob, he’s Алексей Глушенков. What was different about him was that he mentioned that he though you and me were one and the same. You weren’t posting on the page so it seems he’s a fan of our posts. He hasn’t posted much yet but every time he does that I see he goes right after you, me, veth and others who post here on Euromaidan often and seems to have some history on us. I think he might be linked to this idiot Виталий Татаринцев in some way, but I don’t think their the same person. Алексей Глушенков seem to me to be a handle that the trolls are using to try and complain to the news papers about us and try and get Disqus to block our posts.

          • laker48

            Disqus doesn’t censor posts, only do the media we post on through it.

          • Fortranz

            Well it seems that there seems to me to be some effort by the Russian trolls to have us censored. I doubt that it will succeed.

          • laker48

            An “Алексей Глушенков” is likely an authentic, ageing RuSSian sovok with Soviet mythology-whitewashed brains, but making us believe he’s an intellectualist.

          • Fortranz

            Yep, that’s him alright.

          • AmounRah

            “Yep, this one [AmounRah] here is actually a network of trolls” Wrong
            ” working for St. Petersburg” waaaay wrong
            “And yeah, flood the social media with Russian State Media propaganda narrative composed by RT, Sputnik etc is clearly the strategy.”
            Literally have not once seen an RT link or Sputnik link.

            *Great Minds Discuss Ideas; Average Minds Discuss Events; Small Minds Discuss People*
            @disqus_oEYTUCiKCz:disqus @Fortranz:disqus @laker48:disqus @Scradje:disqus

          • Fortranz

            One word for you dope – narrative – not link.

          • AmounRah

            “He’s probably someone working for RT and Sputnik [maybe your emily enso] since he just loves to cut and paste their articles.” -Fortranz. I am sorry Fotranza, I will use *EXACT* words next time. I guess the translator throws you guys off. (btw that “throws you guys off” as in “misleads you”. Not actually physically throwing you. I hope that is clear)

            “dope”? jesus christ you guys are low….
            Never once did I make a personal attack towards you, yet you continue to do it.
            Case and point: ukietrolls are emotional, borderline religions fanatics (yes, fanatics) who can not carry out a discussion and attack other posters.
            I do not know why I still give you guys the benefit of the doubt, every single time I challenge your “narrative”.

          • laker48

            “I do not know why I still give you guys the benefit of the doubt, every single time I challenge your ‘narrative’.”
            Because you’re a TROLL!

          • MichaelA

            ha ha awesome!

          • Scradje

            Bloomberg is infested with kremtrolls when Leonid Bershidsky posts, which is quite often. One of the most persistent is a turd calling itself RW Emerson II. However, the worst (I am ashamed to say as I am English) is a Ukip supporter and FANATICAL devotee of the tiny chekist rodent, emily enso : 31000+ posts since the invasion in 2014. It’s a textbook troll account; look at the kremtroll sites it frequents or references: infowars, zerohedge, breitbart etc.

          • Fortranz

            R. W Emerson II started out [I think] as Jim Jacobson [AKA Big John] on the National Post blogs. I think he’s some kind of troll ring leader. Seems that all the trolls gather around him especially on BloomburgView . He’s probably someone working for RT and Sputnik [maybe your emily enso] since he just loves to cut and paste their articles. I think he’s also posting as Che Guevara, Doom Sternz, and JDL51 . There are other names he uses but one I haven’t seem him use for quite some time is aperscoup, haven’t seen this name since Disqus was stopped at The Moscow Times. Trolls Kalinin Yuri, NATOcracy and lawfrench are all most likely one in the same person and this AmounRah here is probably associated with them. Gazpikae AKA histro is another who came from the National Post blogs and has a variety names he uses to spread his insults with.

            It’s quite the crew, one thing I don’t quite understand is why they all fell the need to post so much together on Leonid Bershidsky posts. Seems they think he should be supportive of their cause just because he’s Russian I guess.

          • laker48

            You’re probably wrong about the Che Guevara and lawfrrench characters because both are most likely former Polish communist thugs residing in the West. Gasbag aka Hristo aka his real name Hristo Etropolski is a former Bulgarian fencing Olympian living in the Greater Vancouver area and running with his Polish wife the Rising Star Fencing Club http://www.risingstarfencing.com/hristo-etropolski.html
            Doom Sternz is likely a former Soviet citizens living in Australia or New Zealand, while Kalinin Yuri lives in RuSSia and is a RuSSian national. AmounRah may be either an East Indian or a Paki or an Arab living in the UK, while the Emerson II character may be either an American communist or a second generation of Soviet immigrants in the US. I’m 100% sure about Che, lawfrench and Hristo Etropolski, while the balance are my best guesses.

          • Fortranz

            I have no reason to doubt you, it’s hard to tell who is who in this group, however, R. W. Emerson II is most likely aperscoup who claimed to be both Polish [when he posted on The Moscow Times] and an American from California [when he posted on National Post]. Jim Jacobson claimed to be in Calgary Canada [when he posted on National Post and Sun news papers]. If you compare their posts you will see that they are all very similar and use cut and paste from RT and Sputnik a lot and the writing format of the posts is very similar. My best guess, is R. W. Emerson II [AKA aperscoup Jim Jacobson etc] is an ex-communist political science professor in Vancouver. But I’m just guessing here, based on one meeting I had with someone a long time ago.

            By the way, thanks for sharing what you know about these trolls. I was being to think that there was no one else who know anything about this group.

          • MichaelA

            I thought gaspikae stole etropolskis identity?

          • laker48

            No, he used to live in Chicago and was removed from the US few years ago. I’ve followed him for a couple of years and he used to use disqus handle “Hristo” before becoming a gasbag.

          • MichaelA

            okay
            interesting
            thanks

          • AmounRah

            “Great Minds Discuss Ideas; Average Minds Discuss Events; Small Minds Discuss People”

          • AmounRah

            “One of the most persistent is a turd calling itself RW Emerson II”
            That guy, posts legit links and quotes and not from the likes of euromaidan press, or UA today, is logical and does not stoop down to the level of those who tell those who disagree with him (or her) to *f— off*, as Fotranz and his posse so eloquently puts it.

            Challenge him directly or is that too much work because you actually have to dig and face things that make you uncomfortable and challenge your resolve?

            -“FANATICAL” Well, at least you guys can learn.

          • AmounRah

            Wow. Look at that.
            Ukietrolls, trolling other trolls and [email protected] them into being bigger trolls.
            Nice….sell the lie to others, so they will do the dirty work for you, is that it? Too worried to reply to me directly other than call me names but proceed to write a whole paragraph about me to your trolls?
            Wow
            “His purpose here is simple Микола Данчук, he is trying to sow discord, disparagement and distrust among Ukrainians [and Americans] for all government institutions of the Ukraine. ”
            OH THE IRONY! the IIRROONNNYYY in that post.

            You guys are fanatics, religious-level fanatics.

          • Fortranz

            True to form AmounRah, you just did #5 again…lol

          • AmounRah

            Do you know what a self fulfilling prophesy is?

            “True to form AmounRah, you just did #5 again…lol”
            Wrong. Again.

            I call people who refuse to be objective and blindly believe in their resolve. That’s a fanatic. A person who calls another person names because they disagree with their point of view (like you did to me), that’s a fanatic. A person who attempts to defame someone who disagree with them, while spewing lies about that someone (then again, you did have 2 years+ worth of practice), without confronting them about it and literally talking behind their back…..that’s a fanatic.
            You know how to tag people. Yet you did not tag me, and yet the post is defaming me.

            BTW, your post has been flagged.
            As per Disqus rules:
            “Targeted harassment — posted or encouraged others to post harassing comments or hate speech targeting me, other individuals, or groups”

            Like I said……the irony…
            Good luck gossiping.

          • Fortranz

            “- BTW, your post has been flagged. -”

            Who cares? And how am I harassing you by talking to laker48 and where is this hate speech about you ? Man, I think you need to take your meds AmounRah, that paranoia is getting out of hand for you…lol

          • AmounRah

            “Who cares?” You did enough to reply back.

            ” And how am I harassing you by talking to laker48 and where is this hate speech about you ? ”
            -I will copy/paste it again:
            Targeted harassment — posted or encouraged others to post harassing comments or hate speech targeting me, other individuals, or groups”
            Targeted?- Check.
            Posted harassing comments (other than NUMEROUS name calling towards me?) in the post calling me a liar and speculating through every pore of your body, while defaming me?- Check.
            Involved other individuals while posting negative comments about me TO others, making me a target?- Check.

            I love how you flip flop from one type of logic to another, whenever and whichever suits you best….what’s that saying? Snake on a pan?

          • Fortranz

            So when you call me and others fanatics, ukietrolls etc that’s not targeted harassment or name calling towards me and others? Yep, got that – Check…lol

            By the way, if you didn’t lie than you wouldn’t get called a liar .Try this and see how it works. And I love how you try and flip flop everything said to you into personal attacks on you whenever someone disagrees with you. Typical Russian troll logic there – Check…lol

            Also would you get to know the English language better if you intend to communicate in it. Right now even your childish rants aren’t very coherent and make you seem as though you are an idiot.

          • AmounRah

            “Also would you get to know the English language better if you intend to communicate in it.”
            “By the way, if you didn’t lie *than* you”

            *rolles eyes*

            I give up. I come here to discuss facts, not engage in personal bickering with someone that has never met me and whom I have never met.
            And I promise you, calling someone else an idiot does not make you brave………..except maybe….to the rest of your pose.
            Legit reminds me of those r*tarded hyeenas from Jungle Book.

            “By the way, if you didn’t lie than you wouldn’t get called a liar” Everything that I say and post is backed up and I have always literally always, provided you with links in the past and you have never….literally never, provided me with anything credible.
            More examples of fanaticism and if you can not see it…well….you are the smartest out of everyone else, Forty.

            P.S. Love those random up-votes showing up within minutes. You guys got a legit system going on 😉

          • Fortranz

            “- P.S. Love those random up-votes showing up within minutes. You guys got a legit system going on -”

            Yeah, the system around here is no one votes for an idiot like you, not even your Russian troll friends it would seem.
            And c’est dommage pour vous, Non ?

          • AmounRah

            Like I said…
            Emotional, shallow, low and…well…slow.

            You are here to bicker, not discuss.
            Go back to your pose and discuss people, like the small minds do.

          • Fortranz

            You really do need psychiatric help AmounRah and I mean that sincerely.

          • AmounRah

            No, you mean that ironically, tranzy.

          • MichaelA

            yet more insults
            no facts

          • MichaelA

            typical insults
            no interest in the issues

          • AmounRah

            hahahahah
            “Im upvoted cause they like me, you are downvoted cause your russian trolls dont like you, but if they upvote you, its because they are russian trolls” lmao what kind of sh** logic is that lol
            I mean I expect it at this point but oh my god it’s like watching a sitcom. I mean comedians would literally write this sh** hahaha
            Nice tranzy….nice.

          • Fortranz

            Who an or what are you quoting here? The voices in your head?

          • AmounRah

            “Who an or what are you quoting here? The voices in your head?”
            ZING! Good one! you win
            hahahahaha

          • Fortranz

            Like this answers the question?

          • laker48

            This katsap armoured rat is upset. Don’t tease the rat! BTW, his Fuhrer Shorty the Shirtless’s childhood nickname was “shchurek” (“ratlet”).

          • Fortranz

            lol

          • MichaelA

            you dont come here to discuss facts
            virtually none of your posts do that

          • AmounRah

            Yes, I do
            But every-single-post ends up with someone making it personal because the opposition has absolutely nothing to argue back with other than “lululul putin lululu kremlin llululul kgb paid trol” etc

          • MichaelA

            no you dont
            there are a great deal of facts and detail argued by people here
            and your responses are usually just insults

          • AmounRah

            Yes, I do.

            And no Michael, they are not.
            Actually you know what. i challenge you to give me say…10 posts (which are not replies to peop…..individuals like Fortranz after they had their touch) where I insult someone, directly.
            Hell, let’s even do 5 where I “started it”.

            P.S. If you want, I can save you a lot of time by telling you that you will not find them. In fact, when someone calls me a derogatory term, I ignore it and do not call the person the same. BUT HEY, if you got time to waste, would *love* to see what you come up with. I certainly hope you stand behind what you say.
            Will be waiting.

          • MichaelA

            there are plenty of posts like that on this thread alone
            just read your own bile
            you dont come here to discuss facts
            virtually none of your posts do that
            there are a great deal of facts and detail argued by people here
            and your responses are usually just insults

          • MichaelA

            looks like your flagging did a lot of good…

          • MichaelA

            what civil war?
            and yes thousands dead – most killed by russian gangs

          • AmounRah

            ” most killed by russian gangs”
            Really? Links to stories please
            while you are at it: look up “Torando little girls Ukraine” on google and let me know what you find

          • MichaelA

            youve read all the links
            russian gangs call themselves separatists mostly
            but they are still just gangs
            and they killed thousands of ukis
            i looked up torando little girls ukraine and found nothing relevant

          • AmounRah

            Please do not divert the conversation.
            Link me to facts where there are Russian gangs fighting in Ukraine
            “i looked up torando little girls ukraine and found nothing relevant”

            REALLY!? WOW! You really think that is going to fly?
            Or………wait, does Kiev filter your internet? or you found nothing you wanted to believe??

            LITERALLY the first link with those key words:
            “Ukrainian Pro-Govt Unit Caught on Video [email protected] Young Girls”
            second link:
            “Ukrainian volunteer unit troops [email protected] underage girls, filmed it on camera”
            Another link,
            http://www.abwab.eu/english/ukraine-intimate-war/
            Excerpt:
            “Anna’s file is not the only one to end up in the hands of Ukrainian judges. The case against the Tornado battalion is one of the most high-profile affairs in modern Ukraine. About a third of the members of the battalion already had a criminal record when it was first formed in spring 2014. It has recently been disbanded and 12 of its members are currently being prosecuted for several crimes committed in the East including gang activity, torture and s3xual violence. The military prosecutor in the case has chosen to center his communications strategy around these charges of s3xual violence and clearly seems to want to make an example of this case. However, the task is far from easy. ”
            And thats just THE ONE THEY CAUGHT because those d3g3nerates filmed it on cameras.
            Oh and look, the neo-nationalists are DEFENDING them, in the open:
            “Very often, protestors disrupt hearings involving battalions in order to put pressure on the judges. The case against the Tornado battalion was no exception.”

            etc, etc, etc

            So you either do not search, or do not want to search…..and the fact that you do not want to admit you were wrong, or at least didn’t know about it, only shows me that you are strictly emotionally invested in this whole thing.

          • Микола Данчук

            It is no surprise that you would chose an issue, heinous as it is, and overtly insinuate a disregard or assume some sort of nationalistic fervor.

            The Court has the case and prosecution of the offenders is proceeding meticulously but your main innuendo would be on the nation as a whole, why is that – when you dismiss damning facts of the wrongs committed by Russia?

            Can one not argue that Tornado volunteers would not exist if Russia had not invaded? Which should have no bearing or preclusion to the crime? And are the offenders actually Ukrainian or representative of Ukraine as a whole?

            What are the facts, please?

          • AmounRah

            “Can one not argue that Tornado volunteers would not exist if Russia had not invaded?”

            Wait wait wait wait wait…..

            Before I even touch those questions, are you ***SURE*** that this is the comment you want to make, and that this is the logic that you want to stay with?
            I actually want to make sure that, your logic on what happened to the underage Ukrainian girls and their families, mothers and civilians in the area where this Pro-Ukrainian Gov’t battalion made a base, was not conscious actions of the Ukrainian “soldiers”, but this is Russia that pretty much “made them do it”?

            I really, really hope that you were trying to say something else..

          • Микола Данчук

            For someone who assumes to comprehend a logical narrative, you really – really hope to insert your own illogical interpretation, really?

            There can be no justification of crimes no matter the pretext, yet – you have no issues negating any/all crimes instigated and/or perpetrated by the supporters/representatives of Russia, why?

            So, if you can not rebuke my queries as a whole, it would invalidate any ‘criteria’ you may assume – really!

            Now you may present your “something else” ignoring everything I have said.

          • AmounRah

            Do you…flip-flop on purpose?
            Are you even within the same reality from 1 second to another? Same space-time continuum?

            This is getting ridiculous (yes, apparently it is possible, who knew)

            “For someone who assumes to comprehend a logical narrative, you really – really hope to insert your own illogical interpretation, really?”
            I *ASSUME* you did not see the question mark at the end of the sentence? I also *assume* that you did not see the sentence that asked you to clarify..
            Ignoring everything you said?
            Ok, did something block out this from my post on your screen too: “Before I even touch those questions”

            Look, buddy, I am not here for a tug-of-war, or a battle of wits. If that’s what rocks your boat, believe me I am not interested in that little dance.

            “Can one not argue that Tornado volunteers would not exist if Russia had not invaded? ”
            This is not equivalent to justification?
            You literally said that none of this would have happened, had it not been for Russia.

            You omit EVERYTHING else, put the atrocity aside….and come RIGHT back to Russia and continuing this B S about “invasion”

            I am sorry, but no. This “conversation” went from humorously debating back and forth, to a ridiculous statement and I really do not care how you try to weasel your way out of this.
            Go tell that to the girls, to their mothers families and others who were unlucky enough to live in a place that a pro-government battalion decided to make a “base”, that it is all Russias fault. The only reason this happened to them, was because “Russia invaded”. Tornado was created not because a bunch of d3g3nerates got together, it was because “Russia invaded”; families were abused by their very own countrymen (who jump up and down like in a cult), but because “Russia invaded”.

            In my books you went from a semi-troll (take it how you want it) to just a disgusting human being. Have at least some freaking human decency.

            Fr3akin blocked.

            edit: god I still feel dirty even talking to you

          • MichaelA

            he is not flipflopping
            you are
            this was a terrible crime which in ukraine is found out and punished
            in russia such crimes go unpunished
            and you clearly do not have any interest in the victims
            you are a hypocrite with no morals

          • MichaelA

            oh so you mean ‘tornado’? why didnt you say so?
            you are quite disgusting for trying to get an advantage from a terrible crime
            a crime which in ukraine is investigated and punished
            whereas in russia the perpetrators would be promoted

          • MichaelA

            please do not divert the conversation
            russian gangs call themselves separatists mostly
            but they are still just gangs
            and they killed thousands of ukis
            and yes i looked up torando little girls ukraine and found nothing relevant
            learn english and check your spelling you silly little man

    • Scradje

      First priority is to remove the invaders.

      • veth
      • Микола Данчук

        Stabilize the country first and it will be easier to find and eliminate the invaders.

        • Ihor Dawydiak

          These issues are different but they also compliment each other in their own separate ways. Furthermore, they are both equally critical for the vibrant health of the Ukrainian State and its people and there is every good reason to believe that both can and should be pursued simultaneously.

        • laker48

          If corruption isn’t dealt with effectively right now, Ukraine will be next to fail and disintegrate after the fall and disintegration of the fascist RuSSian Federation. Ukraine is still a mafia state ruled, not governed, by the corrupt Verkhovna Rada and no less corrupt President and government.

          I spent few weeks in Ukraine in October and what I saw was very depressing. People struggle for survival and don’t trust the government. There’s a significant improvement in policing of the country, though, and its police force is now much more professional than it was back in the fall of 2008 when I was crossing Ukraine by car on my way to RuSSia.

          • Микола Данчук

            Yes, Ukraine has many problems but it also has the way with all in minimizing if not eliminating them. The people are more proactive in their demands even as they know that short term difficulties must be endured. The “government” was never representative of the people and for the most part still isn’t but people know that they have the power to change the government.

            I was in western Ukraine (including Odesa) this October, where did you go?

          • laker48

            I was there between the 1st and 15th of October this year and travelled through Kovel, Luck, Ternopil, Stryi, Drohobych, Sambir Lviv and back to Poland. I was depressed. The infrastructure there resembles eastern Poland in the early 1960s. You may lose your SUV suspension driving down some Lviv streets, let alone most roads we were driving on. People are fighting for survival and if you earn their trust, they pour all dirt on the present government. Those who live close to the Polish border or have family members working in Poland live pretty well, but further to the east things look really bad.

  • Screwdriver

    Ukrainian authorities to NGOs and activists :
    – Sorry folks, we need to make money, get lost, take a hike, slavaukraineheroyamslava!

    • AmounRah

      Don’t forget to blame Russia for what Ukrainian authorities and American advisors are doing btw.
      It is very important, otherwise you are a Russian troll.

      • Screwdriver

        Yes, sure, each time Poroshenko wires money to his offshore Panama accounts, his face turns red, and he is mumbling to himself – Sorry don1ka Ukraina, I did not want to be a crook, this is all Russia fault!

        • MichaelA

          good point
          russia and ukraine both have corrupt oligarchs
          but in ukraine the people have far more freedom
          and in russia the oligarchs are the government

          • Screwdriver

            If you compare to Zimbabwe Ukraine will look even better, so each time there is a problem in Ukraine – talk about Zimbabwe!

          • MichaelA

            why?
            zimbabwe was never part of the soviet union or controlled ukraine
            russia did
            ukraine has many same problems as post soviet countries
            so its significant when ukraine does better than russia

      • MichaelA

        of course russia is to blame
        the corruption was created by moscow rule in the first place

        • AmounRah

          Date, place and time please?
          names?
          Would love a made-up history lesson

          • MichaelA

            moscow ruled ukraine for centuries but you didnt know that did you
            after 1991 it maintained indirect control
            even after 2004 yanukovych was bribed to do whatever moscow said
            not until 2014 did ukraine start to get real independence from russia
            now it is important to root out all connections with russia the source of corruption

  • AmounRah

    Hilarious.
    Ukraine is non-stop btching about corruption in Russia, while arresting the activists that are trying to stop corruption back home.
    “Do as we say, not as we do”…
    There is another government that has the same motto and it just happens to be the same one who placed Porky-the-shenko in power.

    • laker48

      Both RuSSia and Ukraine are corrupt to the core mafia states. I’m quite curious about rankings of both kleptocracies by Transparency International for 2017. They were 131st ex aequo for 2016. Ukraine deserves credit for moving up from 144th in 2013 while RuSSia dropped from the 127th place.
      BTW, RuSSia will likely be sanctioned into a stone age into the bargain. Trump almost totally ignored Putin during the summit in Vietnam.

      • Fortranz

        “- Trump almost totally ignored Putin during the summit in Vietnam. -”

        Yeah, he probably didn’t want to tell Putin that he can’t honor his agreement [that was done in secret during the election] to drop the sanctions against Russia that Congress got him to sign.

        • laker48

          I’ve actually never believed that Trump made any promises to the Dwarf. Two Trump’s heroes are the late general George Patton and president Ronald Reagan. Both were anything but Soviet/RuSSSia-friendly.

          • Fortranz

            Trump’s only loyalty is to money and he did want to get his hands into real estate in Russian, particularly in Moscow, in the past. He had little success in Russian real estate before he ran for president, however, we know that, 1. Trump never wants to say anything bad about Putin no matter what Putin does, and, 2. D. Trump Jr. was trying to get dirt on Clinton from the Russians during the election. So the way I figure it is that Trump has both potential financial reasons [potential real estate deals in Russia] and secret deals made for Russian help in winning the election with Putin. Also remember that all Trump really cares about is winning the deal. I doubt that any admiration Trump say’s he fells for Patton or Reagan matters as much to him as money and political power he’s gained here.

            All speculation I agree [and it’s doubtful it can be proved], however, don’t you think that what I said fits with how Trump is behaving towards Putin and with the character of Trump that we know him to have?

          • laker48

            None of your allegations has not been proven. Period! I’m really impressed by Trump’s introduction of unpredictability to US foreign policy for the first time since the Reagan era. This alone has sent the RuSSians run for the hills and made the Dwarf run around in circles because

            Trump has just destroyed Putin’s talking horse LIEvrov’s monopoly in this field. His priority is the sorting out things in Asia in order to be able to focus on RuSSia and Germany, and push RuSSia out of European markets for energy raw materials, thus destroying the German-RuSSian gas duopoly in Central and Eastern Europe.

            Trump will not feed the Ukrainian gang of kleptocrats led by Poroshenko in Kyiv for the very reason you’ve mentioned, which is MONEY. He will not, IMHO, sign the bill allowing shipments of any advanced US weapons to Ukraine as long as the present government and president are in power there. I believe that you already know that Trump doesn’t collect his presidential salary and donates it to, among others, the National Park Service.

          • Fortranz

            I did say that I was just speculating and I doubted that what I alleged could be proved, however I think it might be a bit premature to say that there is nothing to the allegations as yet. We will just have to wait and see what Mueller come up with next here.

            “- He will not, IMHO, sign the bill allowing shipments of any advanced US weapons to Ukraine as long as the present government and president are in power there. -”

            US Armed Services Committee supports proposal to supply Ukraine with weapons
            http://uawire.org/news/us-armed-services-committee-proposes-supplying-ukraine-with-weapons

            US Military command supports providing Ukraine with lethal weapons
            http://uawire.org/news/us-military-command-supports-providing-ukraine-with-lethal-weapons

            Now I admit that these reports here are a bit old, but what they do indicate is that Trump may not be able to stop the US government from supporting the Ukraine with weapons any more than he has been able to get the US government to lift sanctions against Russia.

            “- I’m really impressed by Trump’s introduction of unpredictability to US foreign policy -”

            And I’m not sure why you think that unpredictability in US foreign policy is an asset. Look at how well it’s working with North Korea. Trump’s not making any positive progress there that I can see.

            And I don’t see what significance what Trump’s donating his salary to the National Park Service or any charity means in all this.

          • laker48

            I’m ready to bet that no US lethal weapons or at least no Javelin antitank missiles will be shipped to Ukraine as long as the present gang of kleptocrats calls the shots in Kyiv. The shipments require presidential assent. Ukraine manufactures its own Corsar, Konus and Stugna-P guided antitank missiles comparable with the Javelins.

            As far as other things are concerned, I prefer to wait and see. Trump knows that the Dwarf doesn’t have anything to trade with the US and keeps bleeding Dwarfstan into the stone age. Trump needs Ukraine as a future partner but not a present mafian state ruled by Poroshenko and his gang holding under the table hands with Germany and RuSSia.

            Saakashvili has been “parachuted” into Ukraine for a reason. The Georgian government has already started backpedalling about the charges pressed against Saakashvili under US pressure and prospects of joining NATO. Ukraine needs to decide on which side of the fence it wants to be.

          • MichaelA

            it is congress putting pressure on kyiv
            not trump

          • laker48

            Doesn’t matter. They do the right thing. There is money earmarked for aid to Ukraine by Congress, but no lethal weapons in this package. Also the UK confirmed yesterday that no lethal weapons will be sent to Ukraine. Ukraine is one of the world’s largest exporters of weapons and ammunition.

          • MichaelA

            regardless of anything
            do not trust the uk government when it comes to russia
            london is where russian elite go to stash their cash

  • veth