Putin’s Donbas tactics won’t work in Baltic countries for economic reasons, Ilves says

Russian military exercises in the Pskov region bordering Estonia. August 2015

Russian military exercises in the Pskov region bordering Estonia. August 2015 

Analysis & Opinion, Russia

Moscow won’t be able to use “the Russian speaking diaspora” in Estonia and other Baltic countries as it did in the Donbas, however much propaganda it deploys against such people because they know that they earn more, have more options and will have better pensions in Estonia than in Russia, former Estonian President Toomas Hendrik Ilves says.

Russian speakers in Estonia may watch Russian TV, Ilves says, but “the incomes of residents of Estonia are ten times those in Eastern Ukraine,” Estonia is a member of the EU and so its residents can move about freely, and “the minimum pension” in Estonia exceeds the average Russian’s pay and that makes all the difference.

Some Russian speakers in Estonia, the former Estonian president tells Krymr.com journalist Kseniya Kirillova, may accept what they see on Russian television because they “haven’t seen with their own eyes the conditions of the Russian provinces” but “attempts to influence Estonian speakers haven’t been crowned with great success.”

Consequently, Ilves says, he “doesn’t think that Moscow will be able to use the Russian-language diaspora in Estonia as it used them let us say in the Donbas. The reason is simple: in addition to propaganda, it is important to consider the material factor as well” because that drives people’s behavior.

“The incomes of residents of Estonia can exceed by an order of magnitude the incomes of residents of the eastern portion of Ukraine. Besides, Estonia is a member of the European Union, and therefore all its citizens, including the Russian speakers, can travel throughout Europe without a visa and earn money there.”

“More than that, “the former president says, “the minimum pension of any grandmother in Estonia exceeds the average pay in Russia, and therefore people simply do not see any sense in uniting with Moscow.”

Ilves also points to the importance of getting energy from sources other than Russia, increasing defense spending, fighting Russian espionage – Estonia is the leader in Europe in this regard – the presence in Estonia and other Baltic countries of NATO forces and combating Russian disinformation about Estonia.

President Ilves doesn’t draw a broader conclusion, but the implications of his remarks are that those who want to defend the countries of Eastern Europe from Russian hybrid war should focus on improving the economic situation of these countries. If they are more successful than Russia, that will do more to protect them from Russian subversion than almost anything else.

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Edited by: A. N.

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  • Robert

    Well said and excellent insight, former Mr. President. Wallets, purses and pockets usually always provide a good gauge and offer serious consideration when making ‘political’ choices or decisions. We salute and admire Estonia in all they have been doing and continue to do…

    Slava Estonia! :)

    May Estonia continue to grow, prosper and thrive! :)

    • George Evans

      well ..I hope they do better than the Ukraine…

      • Robert

        I’m sure the Estonians (might) appreciate your good wishes – if it is actually sincere, “george”. I don’t believe it’s a ‘competitive’ thing between the former UselessSSR states as you imply. Most all of them seem to be doing a whole lot ‘better’ (your word) since they blew off the rapidly failing (on SO many fronts!) RF… a WHOLE LOT ‘better’…

        Anyway george, that’s very kind of you to have such high hopes of wellbeing for Estonia – or ANYone/ANYthing – for that matter! :) I’ll pass along your good wishes! :)

        • George Evans

          yeah..but wait until the UK leaves and Estonia relies on the Germans for money…they need to look at what happened to the Greeks…

          • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU2qoKn-n3Y Simba Kijani

            Did you see that in your crystal ball? Or did you hear it from one of your Stormfronter pals over at Harlan’s Trailer Park?

          • George Evans

            did you say something, monkey…hard to hear behind that cloak…

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            George, I wouldn’t worry too much about the money. Estonia has a growing economy, a lot of inward investment and a healthy balance of payments…

          • George Evans

            just wait until the EU moneytrain stops..the NATO none is already stalling and the Estonians haven,t even paid their dues yet,,,whistle on , Edith..te dark clouds are just rolling in …

        • NATOcracy
          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            NATOcracy, nice try.
            There’s more to a balance of payments, than the trade balance. Things like the current account, etc…

          • George Evans

            still doesn,t explain why the Ukrainian gold ( 21 tonnes) was stolen or why the Ukrainian nazis will not pay their debts…

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            I thought we were discussing another topic 😉

          • George Evans

            we are talking about the balance of trade..and explaining to YOU that the missing gold ( or more accurately STOLEN gold ) and the inability to pay debts is a reflection…so, come on …where is the gold…Edith..

          • Robert
          • NATOcracy

            Estonia, a role model..

            http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/Eesti_rahvaarv_1970-2009.png/540px-Eesti_rahvaarv_1970-2009.png

            You probably saw what Urmas Varblane, a member of the Council of the Bank of Estonia was saying in my post bellow:

            “because if there were no European money, the budget deficit would have been 16 or more percent of the budget.”

            And what the exchange rate of the ruble has to do with Estonia?
            Their earnings are in rubles and they’re paying their bills in rubles. They simply adjusted the ruble with the new price of oil because some third of their budget is coming from oil/gas revenues.

            If I were you I would rather be worried about the Russian decision to completely bypass the Baltic countries, they’re earning a lot from the Russian transit.

          • Robert

            Again, NADAcrocy, you’re so full of $hit your eyes are probably brown. Correct! You’re not me. You’ll not soon or ever aspire to such reasonable and admirable aspirations! :) I worry about nothing. All your rhetoric is nothing more than bull$hit propaganda evidenced by only RTrolls upvoting your bull$hit propaganda.

            You’re a particularly funny, comical and entertaining RTroll, NADAcrocacy. It may be better if you pay attention to true and real facts. Here’s a recent one:

            Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania Lead Incomes in Post-Soviet Space

            Estonia has the highest average monthly income of any in the region, twice that of Russia which is in fourth place and more than ten times that of Turkmenistan which is in last.

            I didn’t make this up. It’s True Fact. :)

            Stop speaking or writing from your A$$, Whole… :)

            Learn True Facts. Get a REAL Job, RTroll.

      • Eddy Verhaeghe

        Your ‘well ..I hope they do better than the Ukraine…’ says much about your worldview.
        I for one hope that Ukraine goes Estonia’s way. Just like I hope that one day the RF will also go Estonia’s way.
        Both countries being part of a Europe whole and free!

  • Screwdriver

    meaningless topic, there is a big Russian population in every major country , USA , Germany etc…nobody burn them alive , nobody is as crazy as Ukrainian Nazis, so no reasons to speculate about imaginary Russian invasion.

    • Микола Данчук

      You Bolsheviks are the ones that are of greater concern.

      • Screwdriver

        I am anti-Bolshevik, just to let you know.

        • Микола Данчук

          Sure and you don’t scam old ladies!

          • Screwdriver

            Even old geezers like you

          • Микола Данчук

            Like I said – Bolshevik!

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            Village loan shark, commonly known as “kulak” very much, Mycola ?

          • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU2qoKn-n3Y Simba Kijani

            You should know all about loan sharks since you spend your days and nights at Monte Carlo Casino. Soon it will be time to pay the piper.

          • George Evans

            show your face, monkey…

          • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU2qoKn-n3Y Simba Kijani
          • George Evans

            is that your face, monkey…

      • Rafael Hernandez

        Look up Kaganovich

        • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU2qoKn-n3Y Simba Kijani

          Look up Dugin, Raffy.

          • Rafael Hernandez

            Is he anywhere near the murder rate of Kaganovich? Besides it is the Ukrainian army that by far kills the most

          • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU2qoKn-n3Y Simba Kijani

            If only that were true…

          • George Evans

            maybe you should stop digin, monkey until you show your face,,,are you ashamed ??? just what would your 12, 000 comments reveal…how many times have you switched???

        • Eddy Verhaeghe

          What a shining example of a man :

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazar_Kaganovich

          One of Stalin’s henchmen, responsible for the execution of several genocides (the Holodomor, the Goloshchekin genocide, etc…).
          Can’t possibly imagine why Rafael Hernandez would want us to look up Kaganovich…

          • Rafael Hernandez

            Can you tell me his ethnicity for me, please? ;))))))))))

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            O yes I know, he was born in Ukraine and had Jewish parents.

          • George Evans

            so he was not Russian,,,ah,,he must be alright then , eh…get real Edith,,,

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            My name is Eddy.

          • George Evans

            when you keep purveying nonsense you could be saying anything, Edith…

        • Микола Данчук

          Why?

    • veth

      Rusia invaded Donbass and Crimea, downed MH17, killed 12.000 Russian speaking Ukrainians in Donbass……………

      • Screwdriver

        Wake up honey, dream is over.
        Total deaths
        Breakdown Casualties Time period
        Civilians 2,777 killed (306 foreign) 6 April 2014 – 12 June 2017
        UAF, NGU and volunteer forces 3,674 killed 6 April 2014 – 31 March 2017
        DPR and LPR forces 3,539 killed 6 April 2014 – 12 June 2017
        Russian Armed Forces 400–500 killed 6 April 2014 – 10 March 2015
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Ukrainian_crisis

        • Eddy Verhaeghe

          Screwdriver, you forget the information you don’t like… If you quote an article you should quote all relevant information, such as ‘In late August 2015, according to a reported leak by a Russian news site, Business Life (Delovaya Zhizn), 2,000 Russian soldiers had been killed in Ukraine by 1 February 2015.’

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            Eddy, it is not a fact.
            There is much bigger story behind the “reported leak by a Russian news site”. Take my word for it – you would never have enough time to look into it properly.

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            As usual I don’t take your word for it!!! Illuminate us please 😉

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            You only see what you want to see, Eddy.

            Once again, have you read the interview with Professor Francis Boyle who is a Professor in International Law at the University of Illinois College of Law in Champaign, Illinois?

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            Yes. Nice try at deflection, but I was discussing the death toll in this bloody war with Srewdriver.

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            Nice try at deflection by refusing to look at relevant context, Eddy.

            Would you like to try again ?

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            No, I think I have made my point and I’m now waiting for Screwdriver’s answer.

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            You are changing the subject of our conversation now and avoiding answering my question. Again.

            Once again – nice try.

          • Screwdriver

            You can assume that even 200.000 of Russian soldiers were killed in Ukraine, that has very little to do with the point about veth`s fake of “12.000 civilians” allegedly killed by Russians.

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            Veth didn’t write that “12.000 civilians” were “alleged killed by Russians”.

            “Rusia invaded Donbass and Crimea, downed MH17, killed 12.000 Russian speaking Ukrainians in Donbass……………”

          • Screwdriver

            OK, so who are those “12.000 Russian speaking Ukrainians “, what is that BS is all about ? Where civilians or not that is a fake number.

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            If it is a fake number, what is the real death toll? Any trustworthy sources?

          • Screwdriver

            UN Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine (HRMMU)
            Numbers were posted above, less then 12000 total killed, INCLUDING military from all sides, journalists, etc…

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            One of the many figures that are going around. At one time the German secret service gave much, much larger figures.

          • Screwdriver

            “50.000 ukrainische Soldaten und Zivilisten” – there was NO breakdown, any source you take you would not find “”12.000 Russian speaking Ukrainians ” “killed by Russia”. False statement by veth.

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            Screwdriver, if the figures of the German secret service are correct and knowing the % of Russian speakers in Ukraine, the said ‘12.000 Russian speaking Ukrainians’ might even be an understatement…

            Knowing that the fighting took and takes place in the Donbas, a region where the % of Russian speakers is (much) higher than in the rest of Ukraine the understatement might even be quite large.

          • Screwdriver

            Just to let you know… percentage of “Russian speakers” in Ukraine is – 100%, except maybe kids in Galicia. Western Ukrainians speak mostly Ukrainian, but they still speak Russian.

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            Screwdriver, I live in a trilingual country – Belgium, where Dutch, French and German is spoken. I personally speak Dutch – my mothertongue – French and can make myself understood with great difficulty in German.
            To say that as I can speak and write in French that I’m a French speaker is blatant nonsense and you know it. The fact that most Flemings can express themselves in French also doesn’t mean that they are French speakers. Such an assertion is also blatant nonsense.
            Russians speakers in Ukraine are those people that use Russian at home and as their preferred language out of home.
            So you are spouting blatant nonsense when you want to imply that nearly all Ukrainians are Russian speakers.
            So you will have to find better arguments to debunk the point I made in my last post.

          • George Evans

            the home of the EU eh..that explains a lot…Edith…

          • Screwdriver

            If you fluent in French, of course you can be called “french speaker”. But I see what you talking about. To make it easier for you, of course most of the Donbass speak Russian at home, even most people in Kiev speak Russian at home. So if we take the number of allegedly 50.000 killed in Donbass, without any other details, we can only speculate who exactly killed AND BY WHOM. Most civilian casualties were in a big cities, killed during airstrikes and artillery shelling. The only big town which was shelled by DPR was Mariupol, and it only happened once there. DPR never did airstrikes of course unlike Kiev regime. So most of the civilians deaths because of Ukrainian fire were in Donetsk, Gorlovka, Lugansk, and some other smaller towns. So if we evaluate casualties, we can assume that more civilians killed because of Ukraine Army shelling. So if somebody accusing Russia of killing 12.000 “Russian speakers”, ( and again, this is a pure speculation even if you take German numbers) then it would be logical to reply that Kiev regime killed the other 38.000 “Russian speakers”.

          • George Evans

            at least you are not quoting the CIA…but still a dodgy source…Edith…

          • NATOcracy

            A fake with typical Ukrainian grammar there, the Russians never write ‘v Ukraini’ but ‘na Ukraini’.
            Even Bershidsky noticed that and have said that’s fake.

    • veth

      Also this year Ukraine will receive 400 million dollar militarily assistance in their fight with the Russian Army in Donbass: The White House

    • Oknemfrod

      It doesn’t matter how crazy “Ukrainian Nazis” are since, as all fictional creatures, they are only dangerous in the inflamed crania of their ideators using them as bogies to scare those who don’t know better. Sort of like the Stanislaw Lem’s smoky prawdopodobieństwa (the dragons of probability; see the quote below translated by Michael Kendel). Looks as though you’re obsessed with “Ukrainian Nazis” in the same way Cerebron below was obsessed with the dragons.

      “Trurl and Klapaucius were former pupils of the great Cerebron of Umptor, who for forty-seven years in the School of Higher Neantical Nillity expounded the General Theory of Dragons. Everyone knows that dragons don’t exist. But while this simplistic formulation may satisfy the layman, it does not suffice for the scientific mind. The School of Higher Neantical Nillity is in fact wholly unconcerned with what does exist. Indeed, the banality of existence has been so amply demonstrated, there is no need for us to discuss it any further here. The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragons: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexistent in an entirely different way.”

      • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

        Ukraine: The Brown (Shirt) Revolution – Prof Francis Boyle

        By John Robles

        This is John Robles, you are listening to an interview with Professor Francis Boyle. He is a Professor in International Law at the University of Illinois College of Law in Champaign, Illinois.

        It is a fact that since 9-11-2001, the US Government has been in the business of destroying countries and using NATO as it principle instrument. That was stated more than a decade ago by then US Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz and later by General Wesley Clark. The Pentagon drew up a list of 7 states that were to be destroyed: Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Syria and they have systematically proceeded to destroy all of the Countries on the list. The strategy in Ukraine is the same, US/NATO/EU are promoting the destabilization and the breakup of Ukraine in order to achieve the NATO goal of moving into Ukrainian territory closer to Russia. Harvard Professor Francis Boyle, a US based Russian expert who was invited to the Soviet Union to lecture spoke on these issues and more in an interview with the Voice of Russia.

        While Russia was distracted into believing that the US wanted a reset US foreign policy was being planned and dictated by rabid Russia haters like Zbigniew Brzezinski and Richard Pipes. Brzezinski wants to breakup Russia into approximately 68 parts and has placed his protégés in key US foreign policy posts. According to Mr. Boyle Brzezinski has staffed the Obama administration with his acolytes and protégées, including the US Ambassador to Russia Michael McFaul, a specialist in color revolutions. At the end of the day the US plan is to see the breakup of the Russian Federation, that is the goal.
        Robles: Hello Sir! How are you this evening?

        Boyle: Very fine. Thanks for having me on, John, and my best to your listening audience.

        Robles: Thank you Sir! And thanks for agreeing to speak with us. News of the day is Ukraine. Now you’ve recently made some statements and done some work regarding Syria. I’d like to ask for your correlations between what is going on right now in Syria and what is going on right now in Ukraine. Do you see a connection? Some people are saying that Ukraine, the push there was because the US was not allowed to carry out military operations against Syria. Do you see a relationship between them?

        Boyle: Well I wouldn’t say that is “necessarily” the reason. As we know, Ukraine has for a long time been a strategic objective of the United States and trying to get Ukraine into NATO. And this EU plan was simply a first step in that direction. The EU wasn’t really offering anything to Ukraine. But it was very clear, if they could move Ukraine closer to the EU, that would be a step closer to NATO. In fact, I regret to say over the years, even though I have EU citizenship and carry an EU passport, the EU now has become nothing but an anteroom to NATO.

        So, I think this really has to be understood in terms of the gradual movement of NATO further to the east in violation of the pledge that George Bush Senior and Jim Baker gave to then President Gorbachev that if he agreed to the reunification of Germany, NATO would move no farther east, towards Russia’s boundaries.

        Robles: Well, we’ve seen those promises, similar promises were made to President Gorbachev – the first and last President of the Soviet Union – those were also ignored. And regarding …

        Boyle: The problem was – he never got them in writing.

        Robles: That’s exactly what I was going to say.

        Boyle: That is incredibly naive on his part not to get them in writing. And I would point out, right now the United States is trying to do the exact same thing on the deployment of BMDs (ballistic missile defense) into Europe and around the borders of Russia saying “you have to accept our assurances, but we are not going to give you anything in writing.”

        You know, it is preposterous. In fact, we had something in writing and that was the Anti-ballistic Missile System Treaty of 1972 that prevented all of this. And then Bush Junior pulled out of that treaty. So, as it stands now, really anything goes, these verbal assurances mean nothing.

        Robles: Getting away a little bit from the ABM system now, you mentioned NATO and Ukraine; there is a military objective, if you could tell us about that? And is there a similar military objective for Syria? Or what is the objective of the US Government in Syria?

        Boyle: Since 9/11 2001, as publicly admitted by then Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz, the United States Government would be getting into the business of destroying states. And that was later confirmed by General Wesley Clark, as you know in his memoirs, his meeting there at the Pentagon where they had the list of seven states they were going to proceed to take over.

        Afghanistan was first, Iraq was second, Sudan was on the list, Libya was on the list and Syria was on the list, Iran was on the list. So, they are proceeding systematically down that list of destroying states. Syria is now near the top, Iran might be next. And it also appears now the same strategy is being applied to Ukraine to promote the crackup of Ukraine between east and west and, I would hate to say it, the dissolution of Ukraine as a state.

        Robles: Can you repeat that quote again? He said…

        Boyle: Yes Wolfowitz said… I have the citation in my book “The Criminality of Nuclear Deterrence”, where Wolfowitz said: “We are going to get into the business of destroying states”. And then, soon thereafter General Wesley Clark (head of NATO) was in the Pentagon and can confirm they drew up a list of seven states that they were systematically going to go after.

        So, that’s really, the objective here of Syria, against Syria, is as they did to Libya: to crackup Syria as a state into its constituent, religious and ethnic units not only for the United States but also for the benefit of Israel.

        As you know, Israel has been a long time opponent to Syria. They headed a plan there, the Yi Nolan Plan to crackup surrounding states in order to better manage them and keep them under control. So, here you see a congruence of interests certainly between the United States and Israel.

        And I regret to say it, but pretty much they have cracked up Syria in its constituent units, as they had done to Iraq. We now have basically three mini states in Iraq. The same has been done to Afghanistan and also Libya, where you have, you know it is hard to say there is a meaningful state there anymore. I have a new book out called “Destroying Libya and World Order” where I have all these citations in there and an analysis. And then, I tried to extend this to Syria near the end of the book.

        And it does appear we are seeing a similar pattern of behavior here on Ukraine: to destabilize Ukraine, promote a crack up, some type of civil war or who knows what. And I guess the theory is, well if NATO-EU can get western Ukraine – fine! – they can extend the borders of NATO, the EU that far.

        So, it is a very dangerous situation, because, as you know, Ukraine is of utmost strategic significance to Russia. And second, Russia believes that Ukraine is the cradle of its civilization.

        Robles: Well it is, that’s not a belief. Ukraine is the mother of Rus.

        Boyle: I’ve been to Ukraine and I’ve been to where Nestor wrote his chronicles, and I have studied Russian and Ukrainian history, sure, at Harvard. And I went through the same PhD program at Harvard that produced Zbigniew Brzezinski before me and Richard Pipes, both of whom were, are ardent Russia haters, there is no question at all about it. And that is really part of the problem here in the United States, when it comes to Russian studies, that so much of it is biased against Russia inherently.

        Robles: Why is that, please, if you could? You’ve been through the system, you know the system. Why does the US hate Russia so much? Why?

        Boyle: Well I spent ten years at the University of Chicago and Harvard Law School studying Russian history, Russian literature, Soviet politics, Russian politics. Indeed I even offered Soviet politics and Russian history on my PhD General Exams at Harvard, which qualified me to teach both those subjects to undergraduates at Harvard. But I never learned the language because that was not what I was intending to do.

        And all those years, ten years of studying, I only had two professors who I thought were fair, reasonable and balanced when it came to Russia and the Soviet Union. And understand Harvard and Chicago are two of the leading centers in the United States for training Russian experts. They train professors and experts, government officials and things of that nature.

        Robles: Diplomats…

        Boyle: So, and again, you had Brzezinski, I went through the same PhD program that produced Brzezinski and Kissinger. You know Brzezinski is an expatriate Pole who hates the Russians with a passion.

        Robles: Oh God yes, yeah…

        Boyle: Indeed Brzezinski wants to crack up Russia into its constituent units.

        Robles: Right, I think it was 68 autonomous regions, if that’s what it was.

        Boyle: It’s more dangerous than that! In that Obama’s mentor at Columbia was Brzezinski. And Brzezinski ran the foreign affairs apparatus for Obama’s campaign and he has staffed the Obama administration with his acolytes and protégés, like McFaul – the recently resigning ambassador.

        Robles: I’m sorry, can you expand a little bit on McFaul? You said he is one of Brzezinski’sprotégé.

        Boyle: Yes, he is from the Hoover Institute at Stanford, which is a neo-conservative operation out there, and Brzezinski is one of these people.

        Robles: Was McFaul chosen by Brzezinski?

        Boyle: I think all the high-level appointments in the Obama administration in foreign affairs have been run by Brzezinski. That is my personal feeling looking at it. Yes, Brzezinski decided not to take a position himself, but all these people that have surrounded Obama, not just on Russia, but other areas, are Brzezinski protégés and indeed that goes back in the Democratic Party I think since Carter came to power and Brzezinski was his National Security Advisor. You know, he was the one who started the Afghan Mujahidin war against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan and bragged about it.

        So, within the Democratic Party Brzezinski is considered to be their foreign affairs guru and he was Obama’s mentor at Columbia, and it is a matter of public record that Brzezinski was running the foreign affairs apparatus for the Obama campaign.

        Robles: Wow!

        Boyle: So, I certainly believe he helped staff this administration on foreign affairs matters.

        Robles: People are thinking about a reset and trying to improve relations. And I don’t think anyone knew that it was all Brzezinski, because people knew who Brzezinski was a long time ago.

        Boyle: Right. Well, this I think is part of their plan to see the crackup of the Russian Federation, at the end of the day. Sure, that’s I think what his objective is.

        You know, if you want to get credentialed as an expert on Russia, you have to go to somewhere like Columbia or Harvard, or Chicago and get your Master’s degree or PhD from people like that. At Harvard they also had Richard Pipes, he was the Reagan’s top guru on the Soviet Union, The Committee on the Present Danger.

        I had Pipes for imperial Russian history, again, another expatriate Pole who hates the Russians with passion. Pipes was so bad in his course on Imperial Russian history, he used to break into sweat when he was lecturing on Peter the Great or Catherine the Great and had to take a handkerchief out of his pocket and wipe his brow. So, he is another fanatic against the Russians, only prominent in the Republican Party.

        So, we don’t really have … you know Professor Cohen at NYU I think is fair, balanced and reasonable when it comes to Russia. He just wrote something in The Nation on Ukraine. And I think he wrote a very good book on Russia. But you know, he is really the exception to a pretty abysmal rule here in the United States when it comes to training and credentialing what were Soviet and now Russian experts.

        Robles: So, why are you fair-minded Sir?

        Boyle: I try to come at Russia and the Soviet Union with an open mind. I lived through the Cuban missile crisis and I concluded that probably the most important issue of my time would be to learn to understand Russia across the board and the Soviet Union. So, that’s why I spent the ten years studying at the University of Chicago and Harvard and getting formally credentialed in these areas.

        And I have to say I was pretty appalled. I did have Professor Edward Keenan at Harvard who was my teacher, mentor and friend. And he was Director of the Russian Research Center. And he is very fair, balanced and reasonable, and Professor Harold Berman at Harvard Law School, again, very fair, balanced and reasonable. But that was pretty much about it.

        I was invited over twice by the Soviet Government to lecture, once around the country in 1986 and then in 1989. And I guess they just figured I was a reasonable American to talk to. And I was open, I met with people and lectured and I seemed to get along with everyone. We didn’t necessarily agree about everything, but at least we could try to talk it out.

        But that’s not what we are seeing now. That’s for sure! As we know from the Nuland tape here with the Ambassador in Kiev, she admits they had spent at least $5 million right away now trying to promote opposition to the democratically elected government in Ukraine. Whatever you think of Yanukovych, he is democratically elected and so far I think he’s shown a remarkable restraint.

        • Murf

          “And it also appears now the same strategy is being applied to Ukraine to promote the crackup of Ukraine between east and west and, I would hate to say it, the dissolution of Ukraine as a state.”
          So much his powers of prophesy.
          So according to him Iran is net on the list?
          Excellent.
          “Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Syria’
          Let;s look at these.
          Afghanistan- there was on government of Afghanistan the Taliban only held the south and Kabul. not sure what about driving the Taliban in to the mountains was a bad idea. Maybe they are your kind of government though.
          Iraq- What about Saddam were you ok with?
          Lebanon- The US has supported the legitimate Lebanese government for years against Hezbollah, Iran’s puppets in south Lebanon.
          Libya- Qaddafi dug his own grave. Obama wanted nothing to do with the war and was dragged into it kicking and screaming by France and Italy with a push fro Hilary. Why the US would want him over thrown after he had normalized relations with the west and gave up his NUCs (You can thank George for that) is something the conspiracy types never can explain.
          Somalia- their “government” died decades earlier. As it stands we are trying to support what little central government there is against Al Qaida.
          Sudan- What about genocidal dictatorships are you ok with?
          Syria- If Assad had not opened up on unarmed protesters he would not have lost 75% of his country. The US didn’t make him as incompetent as he is suborn.
          Much like you Ian, the guy is talking through his B side.

        • Eddy Verhaeghe

          As for Prof. Franklin Boyle’s assertion :

          ‘So, I think this really has to be understood in terms of the gradual
          movement of NATO further to the east in violation of the pledge that
          George Bush Senior and Jim Baker gave to then President Gorbachev that
          if he agreed to the reunification of Germany, NATO would move no farther
          east, towards Russia’s boundaries.’

          that was debunked by no other than Gorbachev himself.

          ‘We now have a very authoritative voice from Moscow confirming this understanding. Russia behind the Headlines has published an interview with Gorbachev, who was Soviet president during the discussions and treaty negotiations concerning German reunification. The interviewer asked why Gorbachev did not “insist that the promises made to you [Gorbachev]—particularly U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s promise that NATO would not expand into the East—be legally encoded?” Gorbachev replied: “The topic of ‘NATO expansion’ was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years. …’

          Cfr. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/11/06/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/

          But in the learned circles that discussed the subject, this was brought up long, long before.

          In other words, Prof. Boyle didn’t do his homework properly.

          Could it have something to do with the fact that the good professor admits ‘But I never learned the language because that was not what I was intending to do.’

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            You intentionally took just one small point from the article out of relevant context AGAIN and used a source (quoting Gorbachev) which can only be described as purposefully fake.

            Don’t be so cheap, eddy.

            You can do better than that.

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            Well, I’m waiting for your debunking of Gorbachev’s words…

          • Screwdriver

            Let me please…Gorbachev can keep his denials, but there are other sources . ” According to transcripts of meetings in Moscow on Feb. 9, then-Secretary of State James Baker suggested that in exchange for cooperation on Germany, U.S. could make “iron-clad guarantees” that NATO would not expand “one inch eastward.” Less than a week later, Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev agreed to begin reunification talks. No formal deal was struck, but from all the evidence, the quid pro quo was clear: Gorbachev acceded to Germany’s western alignment and the U.S. would limit NATO’s expansion. ” http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-shifrinson-russia-us-nato-deal–20160530-snap-story.html

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            You are joking, are you?
            Or are you a complete novice on Disqus?

            And you are being evasive again.

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            Why should I do your homework, eddy ?

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            It is not my homework to substantiate your words…

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            You never substantiated yours, Eddy.
            Stupid old anecdotes stand for nothing.
            You obviously have the same weird ideas about Russia as the idiots you support. You are unwilling to learn and will continue to see what is not there simply because you feel like it.
            Capish ?

      • Screwdriver

        Ukrainian Nazi dragons are very real, big part of society poisoned with the Nazi viewpoints, I can give you some quotations even from the government officials. (Yevhen Nischuk ) “Speaking about genetics, Zaporozhye and the Donbass [region]… they are imported cities. There is no genetics there”

        • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

          revenge driven frau dorfmenkOknemfrod “works” from the “quietude” of her private asylum in California. She has no knowledge, never mind understanding of reality in Ukraine whatsoever. Pork fat and Vintage Ukrainian Champaign commonly known as “gorilka” is the one and the only field of her very “ukrainian” expertise ..

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            Styx, and your arguments are…?

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            I did not intend to have an argument with Screwdriver.
            My reply to him was of informative nature.
            Is that acceptable to you ?

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            No!

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            dorfmenkOknefrod does that all the time.
            Why are you making exception to me ?
            I agree with Screwdriver, why should I argue with him ?
            Did you read the interview with Professor Francis Boyle Professor in International Law at the University of Illinois College of Law in Champaign, Illinois ?

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            Don’t weep Styx, you’ll break my heart 😉

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            Don’t be so cheap, Eddy.

          • George Evans

            with YOU, Edith…

        • veth

          Every Russian, you as well love fascism.

          • Screwdriver

            “Every Russian, you as well love fascism”
            Very good example of average Ukr. Nazi , thank you for reassuring me .

          • veth

            Putin is an pure fascist, 92% of Russian support him, so 92% of Russians are fascists.

          • Screwdriver

            How about ethnic Russians in Crimea ? Same 92% ?

          • veth

            Who cares, Crimea is Ukraine, occupation by fascist Russia does not change the legal status.

          • Screwdriver

            I did not ask you about Crimea legal status, I asked you about ethnic Russians In Crimea,, what is the percentage of them “pure fascists” ?

          • veth

            Every Russian is an fascist

          • Screwdriver

            “Every Russian is an fascist” – Including Russians who are Ukrainian citizens ?

          • veth

            They support democratic and free Ukraine.

          • Screwdriver

            Director of Ukrainian “ZIK” TV channel Ostap Drozdov calls them “debils”, you do not agree with him ?

          • George Evans

            impossible to exist at the same time ..Beth

          • Rafael Hernandez

            Your thoughts are exactly the same as Hitler’s.

          • zorbatheturk

            Fascism is to a RuSSian what water is to a fish.

          • George Evans

            Ukraine does not exist..just like the stolen gold ( 21 tonnes)…Beth..

          • George Evans

            are you talking about “poor ól Shenko ” ///

    • Oknemfrod

      The “big” Russian population in the US is about 750k persons, including both ethnic Russians and those who merely speak Russian. That’s about 0.3% of the total population. These folks are of little concern, if at all, as far as the Russian nefarious activities go; but the Russian state with the crazy dwarf at the helm is an entirely different matter.

      • Screwdriver

        Since the breakup of the Soviet Union, Russia only intruded Chechnya, where Russians were killed, and Transnistria. Russia could but did not join S. Osetiya, Abkhazia, did not accept DPR and LNR. Absolutely nothing was done to Baltic countries, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan , and other former republics. And nothing would happen in Ukraine if… you know the story.

        • Oknemfrod

          No, I don’t. ORDLO has been created by Russia and nobody else using its “little green men” and has been ruled from the Kremlin from day one either directly or by the proxy of gauleiters appointed by the same Kremlin. The plan had been to implement the Crimea scenario in the entire SE Ukraine, only the Moscow had misread the Ukrainian people (especially Russian-speaking ones) and hence the plan went awry, so and instead of the coveted land bridge to Crimea all they’ve got is ORDLO.

          • Screwdriver

            Different Ukrainian sources report for only about 5000 Russian troops, and 35-40000 LOCAL troops.
            Even in the beginning of the conflict, government building takeovers were mostly done by “Oplot” , Khodakovskiy and Zakharchenko, all local forces. Strelkov-Girkin came to Slavyansk with only 40-45 people. Too much credit given to “little green man” who were in a big numbers in Crimea, but NOT in Donbass, unfortunately.

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            I agree, unfortunately ..

          • Brent

            We have a match!!! Dumb “Screwball” and Dumberakov “Ian Rutherford”!!! They agree!!!

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            breath in deeper and you will get even higher on the gas coming from your ass ..

          • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU2qoKn-n3Y Simba Kijani

            Omi up and reply to me you chinless wonder… I know you don’t have me blocked northern git.

          • George Evans

            spoken bu Bent, Edith and the Monkey…what a gang…

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            Take away those 5000 Russian troops, weaponry and ammunition and the whole DPR/LPR edifice will come crashing down quicker than it was built up.

          • Screwdriver

            Yes, sure… 5000 Russians troops weaponry and ammunition holding 100.000 Ukrainian Zulu army. Yes, it reminded me the Battle of Blood River, 1838. If few hundred Boer guys would not have weaponry and ammunition, that would be bad for them against 80.000 Zulus. :-(

          • veth
          • veth

            Since when Ukraine has 100.000 soldiers , nazzi?

          • Screwdriver

            Sorry, not 100.000 but 204,000, my mistake.
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_of_Ukraine

          • Brent
          • Rafael Hernandez

            It was never Putin’s intention to annex NovoRossiya. To bring the area to Russian levels would require trillions of dollars. However what Putin wants is Ukraine not to be a puppet state of USA or NATO

          • Screwdriver

            Looks like 5000 can hold 200.000 Zulu army, but can not advance. I wish Russia would send more then just 5000 troops when Putin is gone.

          • veth

            GIRKIN WHO KILLED PERSONALLY PENSIONERS IN SLAYYANSK IN BASEMENTS, YOU SMILE. RUSSIANS ARE INFERIOR!

          • George Evans

            hello Beth…we are getting the whole crew of idiots now…

          • Brent

            And Strelkov Girkin lamented he couldn’t find 1000 locals to come fight for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine….

            Stick to clean toilets “Screwball”….you’re much better at that!

          • Screwdriver

            We went through this already, eventually he got about 5000 in Slavyansk, right before retreating to Donetsk.

          • George Evans

            don,t confuse them with facts, …they live in there own bubble,….

          • Brent

            You Russians won’t know facts until you’re lining up again in bread and meat queues….

          • George Evans

            only one place to line up trolls like you, Bent…

          • Brent

            So now you’re claiming he ran away to Donetsk with 5000 locals from Slovyansk??? The claim he couldn’t get 1000 locals was made in May of 2014. By July he was fleeing like a rat to Donetsk. Did he take these 5000 with him?

            You really didn’t think that through “Screwball”….

          • Screwdriver

            I did not say they all from Slavyansk, some guys came there from other Ukrainian towns, some from Russia, one guy even came from France… Ukrainian sources confirming 5000 fighters. http://slavinfo.dn.ua/blog/alex-64/poslednii-den-okkupatsii-pervyi-den-osvobozhdeniya
            Locals were very happy, and cheered “occupants”, local mayor Nellie Shtepa welcomed them . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC1O6uhF_Yo

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            Baseless, purposefully constructed hyperreal speculation in EVERY SINGLE SENTENCE, as per usual.

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            ‘as per usual’ you don’t refute any of those so-called ‘Baseless, purposefully constructed hyperreal speculation’s…

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            Try reading my previous reply to frau dorfmnkOknefrod, Eddy.
            (interview with Professor Francis Boyle who is a Professor in International Law at the University of Illinois College of Law in Champaign, Illinois.)
            I’ve known dorfmnkOknefrod for a very long time and as a mathematician fully understand the world of hyperreality she built around herself.
            A consultant psychiatrist could explain her difficulties to you in much greater detail. Would you like me to arrange a meeting for you with a very reputable one, whose academic work I assisted with as a mathematician, in case you feel inclined to learn more about a very curious indeed specimen you are trying to vouch for ?

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            Styx, do you know Oknemfrod personally?

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            That would be telling, wouldn’t it ..

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            That’s not an answer to my question. Yes or no are…

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            I will consider answering your questions if and when you start answering mine.

            Did I make myself clear ?

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            Then I’ll ask Oknemfrod 😉

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            I can’t care less who you ask, eddy.

          • Brent

            You “can’t” care less….there’s a surprisingly unusual grammatical error for a supposed “Brit” to make, Comrade Ian!!!

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            It would take you another lifetime to understand the humour behind that phrase, brainless gas. And it is widely used in colloquial English. Not that you could possibly be aware ..
            I’ll see you later.

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            Styx, just Google ‘can’t care less’ and you’ll get ‘couldn’t care less’ or ‘could care less’.
            ‘Not that you could possibly be aware..’?

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            Yes, I am aware. It was a deliberate mistake.
            I am beginning to suspect that you are not quite there ..
            Why would that be, eddy ?

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            Jezus, you never give up. Even if you are exposed you continue. Nothing else to do? Or do you find pleasure in other participants on the discussion boards about Ukraine?

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            Don’t you DARE to mention Jesus, eddy.

            Coming from you it is nothing short of a blasphemy.

            You never exposed anything but your extreme dishonesty and depravity.

            As I said before – I have never come across of a more shameless individual than you.

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            Styx, coming from you I take this as a compliment 😉

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            Do you ever have anything to say, eddy ?

          • George Evans

            why ???

          • Brent

            Great, another Russian troll not properly trained in “Anglush grammerr”……

          • George Evans

            what are you babbling on about, dumbo Bent…or maybe Bent Dumbo…

          • Oknemfrod

            Eddy, I’m not sure how and in which context my nom de plume came up since I’ve blocked that blockhead a long time ago and can only see your replies. But I see you’ve asked a couple of questions, and I have no reason to hide a few facts just to make sure you know: (a) I’ve never met this imbecile in person, nor have any inclination whatsoever to do so, (b) I’m a male, so it would be “he”. A few other self-revealed tidbits of info can be easily learned from my publicly available post history. In particular, I’m a native of Ukraine (fluent in both Ukrainian and Russian, which gives me certain ability to access first-hand information on the matters usually discussed here); and have been residing in Jacksonville, Florida for the last 23 years.

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            Thx

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            Oknemfrod,
            I already had gathered that you most probably were a male (cfr. doing your military service, etc…). But now I’m a 100% certain 😉
            As far my participation in these discussion boards.
            I’m a Fleming and know by experience what it means to have to fight – thank God in Belgium there was little or no fysical violence involved – for one’s language, one’s culture, one’s independence as a nation. Flanders isn’t a 100% there yet, but it will get there soon.
            So in general I sympathize with nations that have to ‘fight’ for their independence.
            Part of my family is Russian and I have Ukrainian friends and my heart bleeds when I see what this bloody war is doing to both Russians and Ukrainians.
            As for screwdriver, Styx and the like, some of them are worth discussing with, but most not.

          • Oknemfrod

            Thanks for sharing, Eddy. Good to know.

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            The history of Flanders is very different from Ukraine, Eddy.
            I had a very good friend who was originally from Flanders back in my student days.
            There would never be any reason for fighting in Ukraine if not for the US based nefarious “patriots” like frau dorfmenko – which is a nickname I gave her quite a few years ago. (Apart from the notorious Ukrainian oligarchs who all but completely disappeared from radar screens after Poroshenko came to power). I used to fact check each and every post of hers and finally gave up since it became pretty apparent that there is not a smallest modicum of truth in any of her intentionally misleading statements. “Russia must be destroyed whatever it takes since they are not even Slavs” is the one and the only motivation in her life. Naturally, one doesn’t need to be exceedingly bright to figure out how and where it is all going to end if her aspirations become reality. I witnessed many intelligent posters trying to reason with her, including well known academics. Somehow, at some point she would always prove beyond any reasonable doubt that she is nothing more than an empty shell fuming with extreme vanity and hate. Her demeanor appears to be very placid these days but the content of her posts is exactly the same.
            I can only hope that you are not as much of a simpleton as she wants all people she lectures on the subject of Russia and Ukraine to be.

            https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/feb/19/frontline-ukraine-crisis-in-borderlands-richard-sakwa-review-account

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            ‘The history of Flanders is very different from Ukraine, Eddy.’
            Of course Flanders’ history is very different from Ukraine’s.
            ‘I had a very good friend who was originally from Flanders back in my student days.’
            Good for you! It is always an asset to know people from other countries and cultures.
            But… I also see many similarities in what happened in Flanders and in Ukraine.
            The culture, the language, the way of being of both Flanders and Ukraine were oppressed. ‘La Belgique sera latine ou ne sera pas’ finds its equivalent in what the successive powers that be in the Kremlin did to Ukraine’s language and culture.
            On top of that both the Belgian state and its French speaking elite exploited and used Flanders as a source of labour and capital until far in the 20th century.
            And Ukraine got the same treatment by the successive powers that be in the Kremlin. Thank God the treatment of Flanders by the Belgian state and its French speaking elite was benign compared to what Ukraine had to suffer. Under Stalin that treatment culminated in the Holodomor. And up to the Maidan the gas trade was used by Russia to rip off Ukraine.
            Have a nice day.

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            “And Ukraine got the same treatment by the successive powers that be in the Kremlin” is a myth shabbily constructed by the current regime in kYiv.

            The rest of your post is pure fiction which doesn’t have any basis in reality.

            “And up to the Maidan the gas trade was used by Russia to rip off Ukraine.” – that is a blatantly dishonest in the face of all facts available statement.

            In short, you have nothing to say, eddy.

            As per usual.

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            I prefer my fake facts above your real facts as the Stockholm Arbitration Court ruled in the case Gazprom vs. Naftogaz that those fake facts are the real ones…
            In other words until the Maidan Gazprom and Russia used the gas trade to profiteer from Ukraine.

            Have a nice day.

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            You can prefer whatever you like, eddy.

            http://af.reuters.com/article/commoditiesNews/idAFS8N1EA053 was a very minor episode.

            Your initial statement was one hundred percent false and deliberately misleading.

            Your highly creative evasiveness knows no bounds.

            Was Reinhard The Fox your great great grandfather ?

          • NATOcracy

            You don’t have a clue about history of Ukraine. There were no Ukraine or the Ukrainians before the 20th century. There were no Ukrainians in the Austro-Hungarian Empire where all people could freely express their nationality (The Poles, Slovene, Croats, Serbs…).
            The Soviets formed Ukraine as a republic and they imposed official Ukrainization in the 20’s and 30’s through their political and educational system. The people were losing their jobs if they didn’t learn Ukrainian, there was a very precise article in the criminal code.
            And even with all of that Kiev is a Russian speaking city. You have a paradox there, there are no lessons in Russian at the university, the students listen lessons in Ukrainian and speak Russian on pauses.

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            The Ukrainian Renaissance as it now is called in the 1920s didn’t last long.

            From the 1930s onwards it was again Russification all the way. Cfr. Stalin’s ‘The national question and Leninism’ (1929), in which Stalin
            advocated Russian as the national language of the USSR and envisaged the dying out of the other languages.

            I do not have time today to debunk the rest of your post today. I may come back to said post another day as it lacks as much reality as your views about the Ukrainian Renaissance.

          • NATOcracy

            Let’s see that ‘Russification’. These are the numbers of printed books in Ukraine, in Ukrainian (black) and in Russian (red).

            http://his.img.pravda.com/images/doc/a/0/a05b500-1h.jpg

            And here is that data in percentages:

            http://his.img.pravda.com/images/doc/6/9/6948d9f-1v.jpg

            Take your time.

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            ‘… the US based nefarious “patriots” like frau dorfmenko – which is a nickname I gave her quite a few years ago.’
            I strongly object to giving nicknames like that to one”s opponents in a discussion. It’s childish behaviour that only fits a schoolyard bully.
            Leave that to the likes of George Evans on your side. George isn’t able to engage in a discussion with real arguments. As I leave that to some on my side, whose use of nicknames also hides their lack of arguments.
            Have a nice day.

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            George is a good, honest man who understands that all dorfmenko’s arguments are based on myths and false premises. You do exactly the same.

            I like the way you pretend that you never read or understood this bit:

            “I used to fact check each and every post of hers and finally gave up since it became pretty apparent that there is not a smallest modicum of truth in any of her intentionally misleading statements. Her claim that she is privy to some “first-hand information on the matters usually discussed here” is also completely fake. “Russia must be destroyed whatever it takes since they are not even Slavs” is the one and the only motivation in her life. Naturally, one doesn’t need to be exceedingly bright to figure out how and where it is most likely to end if her aspirations become reality. I witnessed many intelligent posters trying to reason with her, including well known academics. Somehow, at some point she would always prove beyond any reasonable doubt that she is nothing more than an empty shell fuming with extreme vanity and hate. Her demeanor appears to be very placid these days but the content of her posts is exactly the same.”

            Do try to have a nice day.

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            Styx, good and honest men don’t behave like schoolyard bullies, don’t give denigrating nicknames to opponents in a discussion – I’ve recently been on the receiving end as I’m apparently called Edith now – and in general use arguments, which he rarely or never does.
            I’ll flag the man until the EuroMaidan administrator chucks him of these discussion boards.

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            eddy, why don’t you address your sad little spiel at items like brent, focuser and various other fauna whose abuse you never seem to notice ?

            Why is your vanity should be of utmost importance to me or in fact anybody else?

            You are very manipulative on top of being willfully blind and systematically evasive.

            Did you read any of the articles I suggested for you to read ?

          • George Evans

            thanks, Edith…

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            My pleasure 😉

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            ‘I can only hope that you are not as much of a simpleton as she wants all people she lectures on the subject of Russia or Ukraine to be.’
            I’m very much afraid that the end you’ll describe me as a simpleton as you already said much worse things about me even during the recent discussions on the EuroMaidan discussion boards.

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            Perhaps I’ve been over optimistic earlier on.

            I almost never give up on thinking individuals and always try to look for hidden value in people.
            Your most recent post reveals that you swallowed all the current mythology promulgated by the kYiv plutocracy without ever testing or fact checking any of it. In short – you excelled yourself to a degree I could not even begin to imagine in my worst fears. You are so purposefully selectively blind that there could be no doubts of any kind about your overall integrity.

            I offered a review of an excellent book for you to read and you did not even bother to have a quick look at it:

            https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/feb/19/frontline-ukraine-crisis-in-borderlands-richard-sakwa-review-account

            Here is another reasonably balanced article which dispels most of the myths you adhere to so religiously:

            https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/russia-fsu/2014-08-18/why-ukraine-crisis-west-s-fault

            Thank you very much indeed for revealing your true colours anyway.
            Reinhart the Fox comes to mind for some not particularly strange reason. Are you sure you are not originally from Estonia ?

            Have fun anyway.

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            Today I already wrote that you said worse things about me than that I may be a simpleton. Because lacking integrity is far worse than being a simpleton in my humble opinion.
            Being a simpleton cannot be cured.
            Integrity is all together another thing, because build over the years by
            conscious acts, difficult to achieve and even more difficult to regain if lost.

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            Wouldn’t it be nice if you went along with what you preach, eddy:

            “Integrity is altogether another thing, because build over the years by
            conscious acts, difficult to achieve and even more difficult to regain if lost.”

          • George Evans

            but do you know the Monkey and Bent ??? Edith…

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            The name is Eddy…

          • George Evans

            what do you say, Edith…??

          • George Evans

            MYOB…

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            I do 😉
            Part of my family is Russian and I’ve got quite a few Ukrainian friends and my heart bleeds when I see what this war is doing to ordinary Russians and Ukrainians.
            And yes, I have chosen sides. I want the powers that be in the Kremlin to stop meddling in Ukraine’s affairs.
            Because that would mean that :
            – Ukraine at long last can shed what remains of its communist and Russian shackles;
            – Russia at long last can move forward too. Because shedding imperialism will mean that Russia’s many problems will start to be addressed…

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            In which case you are not naive, just shockingly biased, not to mention selectively blind. Blaming Ukrainian conflict on a non-existent “Russian imperialism” is nothing short of a declaration that you want the said conflict to continue indefinitely. Rule number one in any conflict resolution is not to take sides. Knowing history of the conflict could also help, but you are obviously millions of light years away from anything of sorts and nothing, absolutely nothing could ever change that.

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            By the way arrange as many meetings with consultant psychiatrists and professional criminologists as you want, both of us will not get any wiser. No psychiatrist or criminologist will have an expert opinion on Oknemfrod, if they haven’t met and spoken with him or her…

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            How do you know they haven’t ?

          • George Evans

            I see your gang, Bent and the Monkey agree…fantastic…

          • George Evans

            more bs, Bent…

        • George Evans

          a stark contrast to the activities of the USA and their mercenaries in NATO…

        • veth

          And invaded Ukraine

      • George Evans

        and what % of the US population is the TOTAL population of Estonia…

        • Oknemfrod

          Very small, about 0.6%. What does it matter? Has someone claimed that the percentage is large? Estonia’s biggest problem is not its small population per se but the fact that about 30% of it is Russian, part of which constitutes a sizable and vocal “fifth column” the Kremlin has been unceasingly trying to exploit to undermine Estonian sovereignty and stability. Given this factor alone, Estonia’s success at rebuilding the nation after the Soviet rule and developing its economy has been nothing short of spectacular.

          • George Evans

            so the population of Russians in the USA..at about half of the TOTAL Estonian population is insignificant,,,but the Estonian population is important…just why ???.. given Russia,s population and area,,why should they be bothered ???

            the itch is the continued encroachment into close proximity to Russia by the US mercenaries , NATO,,,this is contrary to the Budapest Memorandum…( the Agreement that the US insists is not an Agreement..in law ),,..
            you guys should stop “cherry picking ” facts (?)…used out of context they are meaningless… to talk of a vocal fifth column in Estonia is laughable..when compared to the efforts of the USA…most notably Vickie Nuland,s $5 billion cookie caper…

          • Turtler

            “so the population of Russians in the USA..at aut half of the TOTAL
            Estonian population is insignificant,,”

            This is what we call Fajorking Context, namely that just like there are different thresholds for relevance in math, there are different cases where the same number can be utterly irrelevant.

            The turning point of the Battle of Waterloo between the Anglo-Dutch and the Napoleonic French was the appearance Considering of- give or take- 50,000 Prussians and assorted Germans on the flank of Wellington’s lines. They represented more than 26% of the total 191,000 or so troops that fought in the battle.

            In the case of the Battle of Stalingrad, units that size would be repeatedly torn to shreds within a few short hours. In proportion to the overall size of the battle, such a force constituted less than 11% of the combatants *at the start of the battle* when troop numbers and commitment were at their lowest.

            So yes. In context, the Russian-American population in the US is insignificant In the context you’re referring to. They are a Vanishingly small minority of the US population relative to their case elsewhere.

            “but the Estonian population is important…just why ???.. ”

            Because the Estonian population in Estonia is not a small minority in the gargantuan Untied States, just as Blucher’s Command in 1815 was not a German Kampfgruppe heading to Stalingrad in WWII. The Estonians have their own nation forged in the fires of some long struggles for independence, much like several other European nations that are DWARFED by the United States and even by sub populations (like say the population of the Greater NYC Metro Area).

            If the entire half a million plus population of Luxembourg moved to NYC, it would just BARELY bring that city to the 9 Million Population Threshold, and while they would be a Large minority they would not be the largest.

            But in the context of their own nation? Yeah, they are important.

            “given Russia,s population and area,,why should they be bothered ???”

            Ask me this: why did the Kremlin bother in spite of the total population of Crimea? Or the Donbas?

            in any case, Russia is ruled d by a totalitarian psycho with expansionist dreams, and he reigns over a country in demographic collapse. More territory with Russophone people is more of a population to TRY and build a recovery from.

            Because Russia is ruled by a totalitarian psycho with irredentalist

            “the itch is the continued encroachment into close proximity to Russia by the US mercenaries ,”

            Firstly stupid: WHAT “encroachments”? Ukraine, Estonia, and the other Baltics are independent nations, NOT appendages of a Greater Russia, NOT vassal states of it. They can decide to enter te agreements They Damn Well Like.

            Secondly: Sorry mate, but if you think “the US Mercenaries” like Academi and the like are the driving force of NATO’s expansion… well they’re not. In fact most American PMCs have vanishingly small roles in Europe, since they’re mostly focused on the Middle East. And they certainly aren’t drivers of NATO policy.

            The reason why Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, and the nations to the West of them joined NATO is simple. Because they wanted to.

            And the reasons WHY they wanted to is quite simple. NATO is a defense organization which puts them- at least nominally- with the same defenses that the United States, UK, and France have. It means that if the Kremlin tried to invade them like it did multiple times in history, they would be able to call on massive amounts of outside help.

            And a basic graphing of the conflicts the Kremlin’s been involved in on its’ Western border beras that out. Of the three nations in Europe that Russia has openly occupied parts of- Georgia, Moldavia, and Ukraine- NONE of them were in NATO.

            For all of Putin’s biotching about NATO intensifying conflict, the truth is he has shied away from going after NATO members.

            ” NATO,,”

            NATO’s not fajorking US mercenaries, chowderhead.

            You would know this if you actually studied the difference between actual US mercenaries and NATO.

            “,this is contrary to the Budapest Memorandum…(”

            No it’s not.

            And you can tell by the arcane art of ACTUALLY READING THE BUDAPEST MEMO.

            http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw/public/2014/eirv41n08-20140221/34-35_4108.pdf

            Nowhere does it mention anything about NATO or “US Mercenaries.”

            Which is kind of important because the fajorking KREMLIN unquestionably violated it in several points, even before Euromaidan (the alleged Coup). The tarrif war the Kremlin waged on Ukraine even during the Yanukovych governments is a blatant violation of Point 3.

            And this is why you have to use misdirection. Why you have to claim the US and UK *ALSO* violated the Budapest Memo and thus it’s not a real big deal. Because the terms of the text have the Kremlin DEAD TO RIGHTS.

            “you guys should stop “cherry picking ” facts (?)…used out of context they are
            meaningless… ”

            I agree. SO SHOULD YOU.

            In fact I talked a vast amount about “context” and numbers in context earlier.

            “to talk of a vocal fifth column in Estonia is
            laughable..”

            Really now?

            Let’s ask them.

            https://static01.nyt.com/images/2007/05/29/business/29estonia.600.jpg

            “when compared to the efforts of the USA…most notably Vickie
            Nuland,s $5 billion cookie caper…”

            Ah yes. And here we go back to the magical thinking about the effects of money. As if throwing cash at something magically makes it effective…. and yet you can’t give much of an explanation for what why the billions of dollars spent to the Oranges had little effect previously, but suddnely triggered Euromaidan afterwards..

          • Oknemfrod

            Excellent as always, T.
            Though your text is infinitesimally unlikely to have any effect on the immediate target of your response, it may (and I hope will) prove edifying for others whose crania are filled with gray matter more logically responsive to facts and arguments than that of incurable putinoids.

          • George Evans

            no effect at all because kit is bs, again..and longwinded bs …fred..

          • Oknemfrod

            Hardly. Rather, it has no effect upon you because, even though it’s factual, supported by logical arguments, and well-written, you (a) didn’t read it, (b) nor have any desire and/or too slothful to do so, (c) even if you did, you’ve no resonator tuned to comprehend it because (d) your agenda is set by ill-informed preconceived notions rather than by logic and reason. That’s it.

          • George Evans

            blah, blah , blah…keep rabbiting on , fred..you are an ill informed twerp…a poser…

          • Oknemfrod

            Is this all you can muster? Quite an argument, there. You’re just confirming what I’ve said of your mental inadequacy.

          • George Evans

            go back to sleep, fred…

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            I remember very well your replies to somebody who never in his comment history posted anything less than a “factual, supported by logic argument”.
            You hated the man so much that you suggested that the World would be a better place if the man would commit suicide.

            The bottom line is: you lost touch with reality very long time ago.
            In the unlikely case you ever had one to start with.

            All of your “arguments” are at best based on false premises:

            An argument from false premises is a line of reasoning which can lead to wrong results. A false premise is an untrue proposition that forms part of the basis of a logical syllogism. Since the premise (assumption) is not correct, the conclusion drawn may also be wrong. However, whether or not an argument is “valid” depends on whether it is consistent, not whether its premises are true.
            For example, consider this syllogism:
            If the streets are wet, it has rained recently. (premise)
            The streets are wet. (premise)
            Therefore, it has rained recently. (conclusion)
            This argument is logically valid, but not always true, because the first premise can be false – someone could have hosed down the streets, a street cleaner could have passed, the local river could have flooded, and so on. A simple logical analysis will not reveal the error in this argument, since that analysis assumes that all the argument’s premises are true. For this reason, an argument based on false premises can be much more difficult to refute, or even discuss, than one featuring a normal logical error, as the truth of its premises must be established to the satisfaction of all parties.

          • George Evans

            when the USA throws money around for no effect.it is always in the USA ( called pork barreling )..the thought they INVESTED the Nuland $5 billion cookie money..but it was ..for the US…a disaster…

          • Turtler

            “when the USA throws money around for no effect.it
            is always in the USA ( called pork barreling )..”

            Incorrect. Usually, pork barrelling is when the US throws money around for no *or little* effect…. PRIMARILY by the opposite party.

            There are still plenty of cases of wasteful spending that outstrip even the 5 billion dollar claim. Heck, the lack of effective fraud prevention in entitlement spending almost certainly cost more.

            ” the thought they INVESTED the Nuland $5 billion cookie money..but it was ..for the US…a
            disaster…”

            Biotch please, all this tells me is two things.

            A: You’ve drunk in the usual Kremlin propaganda that Euromaidan was not caused by Putin’s highhanded diplomacy towards a proxy, or Yanukovych’s domestic corruption, oppression, and the taint of illegitimacy he had from the botched Orange Revolution, or the public outcry at walking away from an EU Association Deal that even Yanukovych’s own base was favorably inclined to but because Nuland threw some cash at it.

            In spite of the fact that far more money had been spent over the years before it by the likes of Soros and others and had no accompanying effect in civil disobedience.

            To disprove this, all I have to ask is “Why then, and not before?’

            But let’s for a moment IGNORE all.

            B: Assuming the conspiracy theory is true, Euromaidan Was some kind of evul pro-US coup caused by Victoria Nuland’s results, and so on….. the results wree anything but “a disaster” “for the US.”

            In effect, the results of Euromaidan was to bring one of Eurasia’s largest countries and a region of vital importance for thousands of years away from the fence between the West and Russia to being firmly pro-Western, and the Russian occupation of some regions of said country, most firmly in Crimea but also to a SMALL extent in Eastern Ukraine. The territory that is just a fraction of what Russia hoped to occupy and indeed its’ “local rebels’ declared they would. While also hammering Putin’s diplomatic reputation abroad and suckering his troops into an interminable, low level bloodbath that they are poorly equipped to win it.

            If we pretended Euromaidan was an evul US plot, it was actually a fairly profitable result.

            This stands in STARK contrast to actual disasters “for the US”, such as the Albanian Caper after WWII (when an attempt to overthrow North Korea-tier-insane-before-North-Korea nutjob Enver Hoxha of Albania was detected by Kim Philby and had the Albanian operatives wiped out as they entered the country), Bay of Pigs (where a promising but limited tactical result was overturned by the refusal of the US to commit), Western financing of “The Trust” during the Russian Civil war( a supposed anti-Bolshevik resistance org that was actually bait prepared by the Cheka), the Indo-Pak War of 1971 (when the US was caught betting on the wrong horse, a Pakistani regime that was not only defeated utterly but proven to be genocidal), and the US support for the South Vietnamese coup against the Diem Brothers.

            And i could go on.

            But then, I know SOMETHING about history, including military and intelligence history. I know something about how to evaluate intelligence capers, and evaluate events as IF they were intelligence capers.

          • George Evans

            keep talking rubbish, burtle…idiot…

          • Turtler

            “keep talking rubbish, burtle…idiot…”

            If I’m an idiot, how bad must YOU be to not be able to refute what I said by presenting evidence or argumentation? How bad must you be to be incapable of refuting the “rubbish” written by an “idiot”, and to not even attempt outside of ad hominems?

            Your attempt to point a finger at me merely means four point back at you.

          • George Evans

            you are a long winded idiot , burtle…

      • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

        And Ukrainian “nefarious activities” resulting in constructing the biggest bogey man of all times and nations described by you as a “Russian state with the crazy dwarf at the helm” are of no concern to anybody of course ..

    • Tony

      For reference, the troll is referring to Odessa where pro russian Nazis attacked and killed(with firearms) members of a larger pro-Unity rally therby inciting an angry mob. The two sides started throwing molotovs at each other and people got hurt.
      Of course all this is in the official investigation but the Rus trolls need a Casus belli so they try to sell this propganda. By the way, Russian speakers in Ukraine aren’t really Russians and Russian ethnicity is nothing more than a branch if Ukrainian ethnicity mixed with mongol(study history). So the whole ‘protection’ of ethnic * thing doesn’t even make sense.

      • George Evans

        but Ukrainians are a made up race..there is no historical Ukraine…

        • Eddy Verhaeghe

          Ukrainians indeed never were a race. They always were a people, a nation…
          A nation that was galvanized by Putin’s misdeeds.

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            Ukraine is an artificial construct created by the bolsheviks.

            As for “nation that was galvanized by Putin’s misdeeds” – you really are into applied mythology of the most obvious kind.

            Wake up – you are harming Ukraine by being so shockingly unscrupulous.

          • George Evans

            don,t tell porkies, Edith…

      • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

        “By the way, Russian speakers in Ukraine aren’t really Russians and Russian ethnicity is nothing more than a branch if Ukrainian ethnicity mixed with mongol(study history).”

        And the rest of your “comment” is as much of an idiotic drivel of a mentally deranged supremacist as the quoted above.

        Anyway, when was the last time you had your head examined, gorilka damaged “hero” ?

    • Brent

      Yes, all those “smart Russians” who escaped and emigrated elsewhere to get out of the Russian cesspool.

      I’ll bet your glad you were hired to clean their toilets in the U.S. othewise you’d still be stuck in Muscovy…..

      • Screwdriver

        According to most ukro-nazi-internet-experts, I am in Savushkina, St. Petersburg, stick to the party line.

    • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

      “imaginary Russian invasions” is the safest way to boost NATO and Pentagon budgets, so baseless propaganda will continue.

      Ilves was caught red handed on many occasions, here is one of them:

  • zorbatheturk

    RuSSians are human cockroaches. Vermin that worship the genocidal maniac known as the Stalin, and his successor, that reptile known as the Putin. Fark RuSSia. Stay out of the Baltix, scum.

    • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

      I always wondered which part EXACTLY of your own private moonshine still do you reside in, zorba ..

      • zorbatheturk

        Farkov, comrade.

        • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

          sober up, dotard.

        • Rafael Hernandez

          How’s the weather in Lvov, Anna? BTW stop with your genodic thoughts and you may actually be taken seriously for change. Also you charge $1 for yourself. Even for Ukrainian levels that is a bit low

    • J.D.

      A scumbag vermin disguised a Turkish/Ukrainian slut is blowing its farts – that’s funny. )) How’s been your “Euro-integratiеon” so far? How many your co-worker cheap hookers have migrated to Turkey, Poland and Hungary? ))

      • veth

        Ukraine has free travel with EU now, Association Agreement with EU, Trade Agreement with EU, and with Canada , Turkey and Israel. And membership of NATO started.

        • Screwdriver

          Free travel is not free. :-) LOL After you pay for the flight/train or bus, you would need to pay for the hotel. Average decent hotel in touristy spots is at least 80 Euros a night, 10 day vacation – 800 euro’s plus food and other expanses. Average salary in Ukraine is about $65 a month. To afford cheap Euro vacation, that Ukrainian must work 1 year without spending a single hryvna for entire year.

          • veth

            Average salary is low in Ukraine, its 260 dollars per month, but increasing now every year thanks to reforms.

          • Screwdriver

            Cost of living is higher every year, thanks to “reforms”. :-)

          • veth

            Inflation is reducing……..

          • Screwdriver

            Inflation is reducing. Not a big problem..ah ? :-)
            “the hryvnia devalued over 300% since 2013” . http://112.international/politics/un-60-percent-of-ukraines-population-below-poverty-line-15530.html Gaz , electricity , hot water..all utility bills skyrocket high compared to 2013. Poverty level DOUBLED since 2015 https://eadaily.com/en/news/2016/10/10/over-half-of-ukraines-population-lives-below-poverty-level

          • veth

            After the Russian invasion, nazzi, otherwise everything would be fine. Trial for downing MH17 by Russai starts next year. Billion s compensation due.

          • Screwdriver

            “but increasing now every year thanks to reforms” 4 hours ago you did not know about “Russian invasion” ?

          • veth

            Russia downed MH17 today three years ago, Russia is celebrating this event…………….

          • George Evans

            bent Beth,,,LISTEN…it was the Nazis in Ukraine did it…understand ???

          • J.D.

            You mean the sponsors of Ukro-bandero-neo-Nazis who must have actually shot MH-17 will cover up your sorry asses and continue concealing the evidence, i.e. satellite data and fabricating? 😉 https://consortiumnews.com/2016/09/28/troubling-gaps-in-the-new-mh-17-report/; https://consortiumnews.com/2016/09/29/the-official-and-implausible-mh-17-scenario/

          • George Evans

            don,t forget the $3 billion due to Russia..a British Court Decision is finally imminent…where will that come from, bent Beth????

          • George Evans

            bs again bent Beth,,,

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            Screwdriver, 100.000 Ukrainians travelled visa free to the Schengen zone. I didn’t know that there are so many oligarchs in Ukraine 😉

          • Screwdriver

            Most of them were not going there to see Sistine chapel, but rather work for cash, mainly in Poland, some doing farm work , some cleaning toilets. Too bad you do not know the main reason for Ukrainian “‘tourism”. :-) https://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/kaja-puto/second-hand-europe-ukrainian-immigrants-in-poland

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            It obviously never occurred to you how those Ukrainians obtained the the cash necessary for the “visa free travel” you are referring to.
            I’ll give you a little hint – corruption .. At best that is ..
            By the way, an average salary in Estonia is about 250 euros and average prices for basic consumer goods are the same as they are in UK, France or Germany. Go figure .. Not that you could possibly care though ..

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            ‘By the way, an average salary in Estonia is about 250 euros…’

            https://tradingeconomics.com/estonia/wages

            As a mathematician you really have a very strange way with figures.

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            These are “massaged” figures which do not represent the reality of the situation for the overwhelming majority of Estonian population.
            But I would be only too happy if somehow I am mistaken.
            I do wish all Estonian citizens only the best.

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            Well you are mistaken. Even a saleswoman working in a clothes shop in most cases earns more. And that trade is not known to pay its employees well.

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            Well, great news. And I do mean it.

            I was judging by a letter from a British person who visits Estonia frequently and has a business there published by one of the British newspapers which I came across a few months ago. I am unable to find the link to it at the moment.

          • George Evans

            yeah,,but what do they do on the side,,,Madam Edith…???

          • George Evans

            they went to get their on going instructions and training, dummy Edith,,

        • J.D.

          Conditional visa-free, to facilitate whores and other menial workers movement (Honduras and Vanuatu have visa – free regime as well, you know), that’s indeed a great achievement. “NATO membership started” – that’s why Stoltenberg said on 10 July that the back office of the “land of free” does not meet the accession criteria.

          • veth

            Russian troll, visa-free means no righ tto work in the EU.

          • J.D.

            Ukrainian challenged bot, since when your compatriote sluts and gangsters needed work visas to engage in their routines in the EU? )) https://greatest.info/mode-for-prostitutes-what-will-result-in-cancellation-of-visas-between-ukraine-and-the-european-union/ Even Lithuanians admit that post-coup “Ukraine suffered from a “very high crime rate” with “all types of reported crime on the increase”, i.e. prostitution, human trafficking, and thefts of luxury cars among the problems.
            https://euobserver.com/justice/138263 That you will keep on importing in Europe in encreased scales. )))

          • veth

            There was no coup……..

          • J.D.

            Of course, just Vicky Nuland was going to f*ck EU, feeding cookies to your screwed up poor little challenged maidown – compatriots and plotting how to intall “Yats the guy” and other dickheads who have screwed you further and some of them now living happily with their kahal in the “exceptional nation”. )) http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957; https://consortiumnews.com/2015/07/13/the-mess-that-nuland-made/.

          • veth

            Yanu run away at night with all his furniture and 40 billion dollars, running to Russia

          • George Evans

            but where did the Ukraine,s gold ( 21 tonnes ) go ? and the Nuland $5 billion largesse…..?? you must concentrate bent Beth…

        • George Evans

          only the nazis can afford it,,,maybe they squirreled away Nuland,s $5 billion eh…what say your bent Beth…

    • veth
    • Rafael Hernandez

      Oh, if you had lived in 1944 or 1945…

  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

    Point of reference:

    Former Estonian President Toomas Hendrik Ilves is an American by birth and political affiliation.

    Effectively, Estonia is under full US occupation at present, since the new president of Estonia is fully subservient to the former US viceroy.

    • Eddy Verhaeghe

      Early life and education[edit]

      Ilves was born in Stockholm, Sweden; his parents Endel and Irene Ilves were Estonian refugees.[1] His maternal grandmother was Russian from Saint Petersburg.[2][3] He grew up in the United States in Leonia, New Jersey, and graduated from Leonia High School in 1972 as valedictorian.[4] He received a bachelor’s degree in psychology from Columbia University in 1976 and a master’s degree in the same subject from the University of Pennsylvania in 1978.[5] He also received an honorary degree from St. Olaf College in 2014 in recognition of his relationship with the college.[6] In addition to his native Estonian, Ilves also speaks English, German, Latvian and Spanish.[7]

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toomas_Hendrik_Ilves

      As usual reality is a bit more complicated than in your assertions…

      • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

        How very illuminating, thank you ..
        I read the Wikipedia article some time ago, Eddy.
        Reality is ALWAYS more complicated than a brief summary of it.
        Just to make it absolutely clear: I don’t do assertions or opinions.
        I am a mathematician by training.

        Some reading for you, if I may: https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a7fa721f6f9812ada239a5b91d3a6b89365b15ad316cc23c8bd22810707329ad.jpg

        • Eddy Verhaeghe

          Oh, are you really a mathematician and you ‘don’t do assertions or opinions…’?

          That’s probably the reason for your assertion that ‘Former Estonian President Toomas Hendrik Ilves is an American by birth…’ if he was in fact born in Sweden and his parents were Estonian refugees.

          Maybe 1 plus 1 makes 3?

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            Try reading my comment again, Eddy.

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            I did and I think that you, as a mathematician of all professions, do trade in assertions and opinions…

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            I do not trade or label facts as “assertions and opinions” when I don’t like them.

            Does that make sense to you ?

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            No. You made the assertion that Pres. Ilves of Estonia is American by birth, which he isn’t . And the rest of your post was one long assertion too.

            Have a nice. I’m now going to walk my cat.

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            You did not read and/or understood my original reply, Eddy. Again.

            Have a nice time with your Schrodinger cat.

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            You apparently love to edit your text 😉

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            You are being evasive again, eddy.

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            Styx, going back to your original and edited text :
            1. ‘Former Estonian President Toomas Hendrik Ilves is an American by birth/by upbringing and affiliation.’

            He moved back to Europe in 1984 (aged 31) and became an Estonian citizen again as soon as Estonia became independent again. So he is an Estonian first an foremost.

            2. Effectively, Estonia is under full US occupation at present, since the
            new president of Estonia is fully subservient to the former US viceroy.

            Didn’t know that the Americans had viceroys…

            As for the ‘full US occupation at present’ I can only conclude that :
            – there’s for the moment only a token presence of American troops in the country, that are there at the express request of the Estonian government (a fraction of the number of troops of the USSR that were based there before the USSR became history);
            – those American troops must have magical capabilities, if you think that with a few hundred Americans the US can occupy Estonia. But maybe you are right 😉

            And as for your assertion that ‘Estonia is fully subservient to the US, I think as a mathematician you express your personal opinion and not a fact.

            PS By the way ‘…Britain is taking a leading role in the Estonia battlegroup…’ ( https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/18/british-troops-land-in-estonia-for-nato-mission-to-deter-russia ).

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            You are being evasive again, eddy.
            And you haven’t said anything new.
            What other newspapers do read ?
            You can quote from Dutch papers if you like.
            As for brainless idiot Fallon, he is a known liar who is putting British national security at risk by behaving provocatively towards Russia.
            It is also well known that he is universally despised by the British public and made a major contribution towards the near downfall of Theresa May’s government. He is also currently plotting to push Theresa May’s premiership off the cliff. I don’t think there have ever been more odious individual in British politics, although comparatively speaking current Chancellor of The Exchequer comes very close.

            Anyway, how is your cat ?
            Having a nice little snooze, I presume ..

          • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU2qoKn-n3Y Simba Kijani

            I’m feeling rested now, thanks. So nice of you to ask Old Bean! But I am getting a bit peckish. I could use a light snack…

          • George Evans

            hi monkey…when will you show yourself ????

          • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU2qoKn-n3Y Simba Kijani

            Getting your species mixed up again George? That seems to happen pretty often in your neck of the woods…

            https://homoclimbtastic.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/deliverance.jpg

          • George Evans

            nah…YOU may feel you are a lion..but to me you will always be a monkey…a chimp..even a chump…but a veritable idiot….and show your face, monkey…

          • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU2qoKn-n3Y Simba Kijani
          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            Time to take you out for a walk?

          • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU2qoKn-n3Y Simba Kijani

            That you call me a ‘monkey’ is Curious… George. Given that Monsieur Rutherford is your Man with the Yellow Hat…

            http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/02/10/13/0017CBCF00000258-3440485-image-m-43_1455110486373.jpg

          • George Evans

            maybe if you show your face we would know, monkey…

          • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU2qoKn-n3Y Simba Kijani

            You’ve shown yours: an expressionless disembodied egghead. Sounds about right.

          • George Evans

            but you are scared to show yours eh monkey..

          • Brent

            “Ian”, I’m sure your cat has run away from the attempted abuse of it by yourself….does the RSPCA even allow lonely little boys like you to even own cats any more?

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            You are a very lonely idiot, gas.`
            And will die being one.

          • George Evans

            you keep playing with your cats, Bent..leave it to the adults…

          • Brent

            Another “gem” from “Georgie” the stooge!!!

          • George Evans

            and another from Bent the stool…

          • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU2qoKn-n3Y Simba Kijani

            Georgy is Ruddy Ian’s very own ‘mini-me’… They have a ‘speshul’ relationship.

          • George Evans

            go and play with Bent , eh…but show your face…monkey…

          • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU2qoKn-n3Y Simba Kijani
          • George Evans

            oh..is that your face, monkey…

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            ‘As for brainless idiot Fallon, he is a known liar who is putting British national security at risk by behaving provocatively towards Russia’

            1. OMG is Russia going to invade Great Britain?

            2. I wonder if your antipathy towards Fallon could have something to do with :

            http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/uk-increase-aid-ukrainian-troops-10812116

            3. I’m very pleased not to be the only ‘odious individual’ to your mind.

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            Eddy, you are playing a mindless but still very provocative fool now.
            Why ?

            If you are interested in a serious discussion – here is a passage for you to read, dwell on and ask questions about:

            “A year ago, President of Finland Sauli Niinisto proposed that Russian and NATO planes fly with their transponders operating. Finland, although it is not a NATO member, wants to see a tranquil situation in the Baltic Sea area. We put the idea on paper, added a few more details and presented this initiative at the Russia-NATO Council a year ago. But things are not moving. NATO, which keeps talking about reducing tension and coming to agreements, are not enthusiastic about this idea. Russia has been accused of violating agreements, while we say that NATO is building up its strength and has advanced far beyond the limits that are set out in the Russia-NATO Founding Act. We have called for our military personnel to meet within the framework of the Russia-NATO Council to show on the map where each country concerned has its forces in Europe. This will allow us to compare our potentials and to deal with this issue professionally rather than engage in double talk.

            It is very important to resume the analysis and comparison of our military doctrines, which NATO has suspended as well. It has been shelved. We are open for cooperation and ready to resume this work. But are our partners ready as well? We will not cajole them into resuming negotiations. Everyone must decide for themselves.”

          • Rafael Hernandez

            Ha ha ha, Out of arguments, I see

          • Brent

            “Ralphie” the mindless fake Norwegian/fake soap opera actor…..you may want to ask “Ian” if he actually wants you trying to support him with stupid comments like that!!!

          • Rafael Hernandez

            And what was stupid about my comment? Exactly nothing, Eddy didn’t explain why Styx was wrong, just like you are. Now anything to add? BTW fck off.

          • Brent

            Is little Ralphie going to cry?

          • Rafael Hernandez

            Is going to report you to FSB. Be very afraid, they aren’t very kind to pedophiles such as yourself ;))))

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            Don’t expect me to discuss anything with you. What I’ll do and just did is flagging you for threatening behaviour…

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            You standing up for brent makes you as much of a disgusting creep as he is, eddy.

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            Styx, you are indeed ‘alone’ or at least one of the only ones that call me a disgusting creep…

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            Eddy, if you support creeps like brent – you are AT BEST lowering yourself to the same level.

          • Rafael Hernandez

            Yeah, no suprise there. But when your fellow UKROP trolls threaten, you’re fine with it. Just like Odessa fire, as long as it is “Moskals” we don’t care about it. You and “new Ukraine” are about as pathetic as it can get.

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            You are not capable of a civilised discussion, eddy.
            You only see what you want to see.
            Deep down you are as much of a creep as brent is.

          • Brent

            Then Putin should be wary of FSB if they don’t like pedophiles…. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/542d4dd493be687ba4e686343f9bfd1d7084fee50d6698f4416dd24c87fbcfaf.jpg

          • George Evans

            no but Bent , is you poor deluded sod…

          • Tomas Kinoshta

            you are a moron 1

          • George Evans

            you lost that one, eh…

          • Brent

            And you have a nice day with your fellow trolls “George Evans” and “Che Guevera” who keep upvoting you…..it’s always funny to see the “herd of mindless sheeple” move from site to site together when they all get kicked off one of them!!!

          • George Evans

            well said Bent…you are just jealous because you talk nonsense …but everybody knows…btw when is the Ukraine,s Gold ( 21 tonnes ) going to be sent back…they sure need it…pity they will never see it again…

          • George Evans

            where is the Ukraine,s gold ( 21 tonnes ) ??? Bent…

          • Tomas Kinoshta

            you are a moron

          • George Evans

            he did NOT…he is not American by birth…he is a white renegade,,,everybody knows that…

          • Rafael Hernandez

            It is a little bit sucpicious, just like Yatsenyuk’s sister living in LA

          • George Evans

            nonsense..you did not understand , eh…

          • Brent

            “Ian”….you claim to be from Britain. Wouldn’t that make your political affiliation also to be with Britian’s real ally, the U.S., and not the Kremlin Mafia you admire so much?

          • George Evans

            why ???? political affiliation comes from beliefs not geography…but you understand NOTHING , Bent…and know even less…you poor sod…

          • Brent

            I do understand that you’re a moronic Russian troll….it’s kind of funny how you and “Ian” and “Che” and so many others all decided to show up here at this site all at the same time!!!

            Reassigned by your Kremlin masters “George”???

          • George Evans

            the only thing kinda funny round here is you, Bent …

          • Tomas Kinoshta

            no. he is a moron

          • Tomas Kinoshta

            you are the moron

          • Dale Davies

            at the start of WW2 there was some Nazi’s decided to stage a demonstration march. The public heard a formed a response. They and the Bobbies protecting them got the crap kicked out of them. Recorded history. Pootlerstan trolls can not reshuffle the deck on paper copy like you do on Wiki. Your turn is coming!

          • George Evans

            you should be talking to Bent and bent Beth…they are the Ukraine nazis…go and play with the traffic, mate…

          • George Evans

            you jumped to a conclusion there..the wrong one again…concentrate…

          • Oknemfrod

            In his distorted multi-avatar world, 1+1 can be anything.

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            You are talking about yourself, just for a change.

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            ROFL

        • Brent

          A mathematician by training….well at least that explains why you’re such a moron in understanding human nature “Ian”!!!

          Oh look who upvoted you! “Che Guevera” and “George Evans”….more of your old buddy trolls and cadre of idiots….

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            There is nothing human about you, gas.
            The damage you inflicted on your brain by inhaling the gas coming from your sorry ass is permanent and beyond repair.

            Blocked.

          • Eddy Verhaeghe

            You’ll end up discussing with yourself Styx/Ian Rutherford…

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            Eddy, nobody in the right mind would ever want to discuss anything at all with a sordid, abusive and utterly disgusting lunatic like brent.
            There must be something terribly wrong with you if you don’t realise that yourself.

          • George Evans

            he will get more sense that way, edith…

          • Brent

            Good! Now I can still ridicule you and you can’t even respond when I point out a moron you are!!!

          • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU2qoKn-n3Y Simba Kijani

            Poor little Ian had to run and hide in his safe space again. I doubt he actually blocks people as he claims though.

          • George Evans

            the hidden monkey miaows again, eh

          • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU2qoKn-n3Y Simba Kijani

            Hey Georgie Boy – When are you going to Monte Carlo to meet your sugar daddy?

          • George Evans

            dummy monkey …show your face,,,are you ashamed ???

          • George Evans

            thanks Bent…have you heard of kettles and pots…

          • Brent

            No just moronic Russian trolls and useful idiots from abroad….

          • George Evans

            and moronic stools like Bent and Edith and the monkey…

      • George Evans

        but why does he draw such conclusions ???n the average income in Eartern Ukraine is less than in Estonia …and why would that NOT be the case whtn the Kyiv fascists do not pay the pensions and other obligations to those people…he should try to learn some common sense, maybe…

      • Tomas Kinoshta

        yes, he was a local in NJ. I went to school in the neighboring town. My Estonian classmate knew him personally

        • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

          Interesting. What was he like when he was a kid ?

          • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU2qoKn-n3Y Simba Kijani

            Wouldn’t you want to know…

          • Tomas Kinoshta

            I have no clue. My classmate was Estonian and knew him from local Estonian ethnic club. beside who cares. Estonia is dinky

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            ok, thank you.
            Estonia is Great though ..

    • Brent

      Point of Reference “Ian”:

      You’re still a moron. You will always be a moron. You’re still subservient to your Kremlin Masters.

      Now slither back under whatever rock you oozed out from under.

      • Rafael Hernandez

        As usual you offer no constructive dialogue

        • Brent

          Nothing that an idiot like you could comprehend!!! I don’t want to see your walnut sized brain start smoking again from having to read too big of words “Ralphie”….

          • Rafael Hernandez

            AHAAHAHAHA, and you say “those big words”, you Brent the gay are nothing more than a repulsive liar and insulter. I can only laugh and shake at your pityfull comments. Btw what happened to the doctor you were supposed to meet? You skipped the appointment, just like you have skipped your entire life.

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            Brent is a “repulsive liar and insulter”.
            I don’t think he has any sexual orientation though, since he gets all his life’s little pleasures out of persistent flatulence he very much enjoys ..

          • Rafael Hernandez

            Exactly. It is sign of depression and his failures. He wants to cover them up by inuslting other’s, especially the one’s that are telling the truth, like us.

          • Dale Davies

            You four snapperheads do not even qualify under the idiot category.

          • George Evans

            only one idiot round here, Bent… YOU…

          • Tomas Kinoshta

            you are the idiot

        • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

          Brent is a very typical mentally deranged ukrainian “hero” and he is absolutely loved by all other ukrainians on this site for that.

          • Rafael Hernandez

            Actually, Brent on days of our lives is gay. Might be there he seeks comfort from the fact that his mother spanked him for his rudish behaviour :)))))))

          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

            Leave brent’s sexuality to himself, Raphael.
            You are flattering him by referring to something which at best barely exists. Who ON GOOD EARTH would be tempted to have sex with a putrid fuming ball of slime that he is .. Maybe eddy, but that makes them even more disgusting ..
            As for brent’s mother, I can’t even begin to imagine what a poor unfortunate woman she is or most likely was ..

          • Rafael Hernandez

            Eddy wants to have sex with anyone who kills Russians, so perhaps we should get Eddy and Mccain to have sex together, so see what kinds of Basterds Eddy supports. As for Brent the gay, the only ones he can get are old woman, he has to paid a certain fee too. The shиthead admitted this on UT

      • George Evans

        hello Bent…still spouting bs , I see…

      • Tomas Kinoshta

        you are the moron.

    • zorbatheturk

      Pure BS, old sock. Poppycock.

      • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof Styx

        Very sweet by your standards, zorba.
        Take care.

      • George Evans

        allo, allo…the turd is back…spouting bs, still

    • Tomas Kinoshta

      correct. there are only 2 empires in Europe. The USA empire and the Russian Empire. Role have switched and the USA empire is the evil empire now.