Outline of possible ‘Big Deal’ between Putin and Trump on Ukraine emerging, Oleshchuk says

A poster of Donald Trump kissing Vladimir Putin by Lithuanian artist Mindaugas Bonanu (Image: 2oceansvibe.com)

A poster of Donald Trump kissing Vladimir Putin by Lithuanian artist Mindaugas Bonanu (Image: 2oceansvibe.com) 

International, More

Ukrainians and their friends and supporters have been so worried that any grand bargain between Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump will be a new “Munich” in which Ukraine will be handed over in whole or in part to the Kremlin that they have not considered fully just what any “deal” might look like, Petro Oleshchuk says.

Petro Oleshchuk, political scientist, professor at Taras Shevchenko National University of Kyiv

Petro Oleshchuk, political scientist, Shevchenko National University of Kyiv

The Kyiv political scientist who teaches at Shevchenko National University says that they should be given that such “‘a broad accord’ between Russia and the US really is being considered at the level of people who are responsible for foreign policy in the Trump Administration.”

This week, Rex Tillerson, Trump’s nominee to be secretary of state, said that the US could recognize Crimea as Russia if there were to be “a broader agreement which the people of Ukraine would recognize.” There are “several logical conclusions” which flow from this, Oleshchuk argues.

  • First of all, it suggests that people on Trump’s foreign policy team are considering just such “a broad agreement … that is ‘a big deal’” and something which is no longer in the realm of “conspiracy thinking but is a reality, although still only hypothetical,” the Kyiv analyst suggests.
  • Second, Tillerson’s words imply that any “’big deal’” would be possible “only if there were agreement on the part of the leadership of Ukraine.” Clearly, Trump’s people now recognize that any unilateral move by Washington on this question would “destroy the world order,” while that could be maintained if Ukraine itself agreed to a shift.
  • And third, Oleshchuk says, those who want a deal must thus be thinking about how to get Kyiv on board, perhaps by putting pressure on the Ukrainian leadership or perhaps by trying to buy it off or “most probably” by “a combination of the first and the second: promises of ‘Marshall Plans’ and threats of ‘a Russian attack.’”

To be sure, Ukrainians should not expect especial generosity. “Even if one approaches Crimea as ‘a trade good’ to be exchanged, no one will give the real price for it.”

And there are two more aspects of the situation that Ukrainians must keep in mind. On the one hand, any grand bargain between the US and Russia will not be about Ukraine alone but about other issues, including China. And on the other, if Trump can’t get a deal with Moscow quickly, then his interest in any such deal will wane quickly.

Consequently, if there isn’t “a Munich” this year, there is not likely to be one in the future, Oleshchuk says, a conclusion that makes an implicit argument of exactly how Kyiv should proceed.


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Edited by: A. N.

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Comments

  1. Avatar Mykola Banderachuk says:

    seriously – a deal? we already had a deal with the Budapest Agreement of 1994 and we all know what happened with this one.

    1. Avatar туфтуф says:

      Yes. But we can have one more. A better one, perhaps. The world is rapidly changing and intl law needs adjustments to accomodate the changes. For what use is a law, if it cannot be implemented?

      1. Avatar laker48 says:

        Fuhrer Shorty the Shirtless doesn’t have anything of value to offer Trump. The whole pseudo warmup may eventually turn into a deep freeze over the next few months or maximum a year.

        1. Avatar туфтуф says:

          It would be good for Russia to forget about the waning West and concetrate on building the Eurasia project. I also hope there will be no alliance with Russia and US.

          1. Avatar laker48 says:

            LOL! Beggars can’t be choosers.

          2. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Agreed. But KGB bee naw beggars. Lol

      2. Avatar Mykola Banderachuk says:

        what kind of agreement can you have with an entity that does not adhere to a signed agreement – one that the russia has signed-how is that possible? that is today’s putin and the russia. putin has to go, why dont you and your fellow trolls rise up and join the world wide revolution against the establishment and elites. use brexit and the trump movement as a model.

        1. Avatar туфтуф says:

          One which is in the entity’s interests.

          1. Avatar Murf says:

            Right now it i this entity’s best interests to keep Putin on a short leash.
            It will be easier to put him back in his box later on.

          2. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Impossible. Only EU can isolate Russia. (Britain is out. France to follow suit. Soon, only ukroland will remain as an EU country.) Lol

          3. Avatar Murf says:

            France is not going any where.
            La Pen is getting squashed in the polls for the run off.
            The political moderate have coalesced under the Former PM . He is ahead 60% to 30%.
            To bad so sad.

          4. Avatar туфтуф says:

            I hear Britain might return too..
            ??

          5. Avatar Murf says:

            That is FAR from a done deal.

          6. Avatar laker48 says:

            The US, Canada and Norway have the most powerful weapons RuSSia is afraid of; embargoes on oil and gas drilling ad extracting technology, and the US alone has even more powerful one, namely its heavy dominance of the global financial system. The US controls some 70% of global capital markets and the UK close to 20%. Do the math! Germany and France are financial dwarfs that can be easily squashed by the US alone. Google French BNP Paribas’ US fines and present US trouble of the world’s largest bank, Deutsche Bank. The US doesn’t need Europe to kill RuSSia. China heavily depends on good trade relations with the US and Europe, so it won’t move a finger to help RuSSia.

          7. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Embargo by Norway? Throw Albania into that and you get a deadly combination. And the Hague, if u wish. Lol

          8. Avatar laker48 says:

            Norway is the world leader in offshore, directional and horizontal drilling technology and slapped the embargo on RuSSia after RuSSia had slapped embargo on imports of Norwegian salmon. All global oil and gas companies use American, Canadian and Norwegian technology, and if embargoes are slapped, they won’t be allowed to form joint ventures and/or start any operations on RuSSian or RuSSian-occupied territories. If you want to troll effectively, you’d better learn some basic stuff. Malaysian Petronas had to leave a joint venture with Gazprom because it uses Norwegian-patented technology. Do you now get it?

          9. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Albania is a leading narco state in EU.

          10. Avatar laker48 says:

            So what, dear pathetic excuse for a human being?

    2. Avatar Alex George says:

      Exactly. Ukraine should work with the west, but it should never trust Britain andhte USA again .

  2. Avatar WisconsinUSA says:

    keep your powder dry ukraine. let us see how this plays out.i know their is plenty to worry about though.

    1. Avatar туфтуф says:

      True abt the powder. . Many have still to do the dying…..

      1. Avatar Alex George says:

        Yes, over 6,000 russian boys and girls dead already fighting in the
        Donbass for Putin.

        Then there are the mutilated ones…

        1. Avatar laker48 says:

          I suspect that the real number of RuSSian mercenary casualties in SE Ukraine is two to three times larger.

          1. Avatar Alex George says:

            I have wondered about that also.

            By the way, what do you think of this?
            http://uawire.org/news/head-of-the-ministry-of-internal-affairs-of-ukraine-announced-plans-to-return-the-donbas-in-2017

            I have asked a few people. Avakov seems rather confident .

          2. Avatar laker48 says:

            He expects that Dwarfstan will start falling apart by the end of this year, as may RuSSian economists do, so RuSSia won’t be able to pay the mercenaries and local louts to fight. The Dwarf should run out of money to pay his Praetorians before this year’s end. I rationally don’t expect Trump of making any charitable donations to Dwarfstan and its Fuhrer Shorty the Shirtless. Avakov is as corrupt as all oligarchs who keep milking Ukrainian people.

          3. Avatar Alex George says:

            Thanks, and no argument about the corruption of Avakov.

        2. Avatar туфтуф says:

          Russians are not afraid of death. I am afraid that my milkman will be late.

          1. Avatar laker48 says:

            They actually are more than other nations. It took over a million strong special NKVD force to drive always intoxicated Soviet sheeple to battle during WW2. They shot in the back everyone who even dared to look back. This is the real WW2 Soviet heroes’ story.

          2. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Nkvd fought banderas too….

          3. Avatar laker48 says:

            Not Bandera who lived in Germany, but the UPA that killed a few hundred thousand Soviet troops in the years 1945-1955. It wasn’t the same UPA-B (Bandera faction) that committed the genocide of Poles, Jews and other ethnic minorities in western Ukraine in the years 1942-1944. The UPA was fighting the Soviets in Ukraine, as the Polish anti-communist partisans did in Poland, also until 1956.

          4. Avatar Alex George says:

            Actually many are. The Russian Army in Donbas has been rather notable for its lack of motivation.

          5. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Thats silly. No ZRussisan soldiers in Ukraine.

          6. Avatar laker48 says:

            According to leaked RuSSian data, over 6000 RuSSian soldiers were killed in Donbas as of the end of September last year. If we add the number of RuSSian mercenaries and local louts killed in action or in local gang wars, the number of casualties among so called separatists will easily reach 15 to even 20 thousand. RuSSia is bleeding profusely in SE Ukraine.

          7. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Untrue leak.

          8. Avatar laker48 says:

            Once the Dwarf fails, the real numbers will hit all newsrooms throughout the globe. You’ll be likely stunned.

          9. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Nothing can stun me.

          10. Avatar laker48 says:

            Well, good for you.

          11. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Wrong leak.

          12. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Silly.

          13. Avatar Alex George says:

            Of course there are Russian soldiers in Ukraine: in Crimea and a small sliver of the Donbas. The point I made, which you are avoiding, is that the Russian army failed in eastern Ukraine because its soldiers lacked heart.

            Although they had much better equipment, they lacked the motivation to fight with it. Hence they were defeated by poorly-equipped but highly-motivated Ukrainians, who were far more prepared to face death for their cause than the Russian boys were.

          14. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Russia wants a frozen conflict. Strelkov wanted to liberate the whole of Ukraine but was prevented by Surkov. For now. But Ukraine will be free.

  3. Avatar laker48 says:

    Ukraine should focus on fighting corruption, introducing reforms and building regional security in tight cooperation with its neighbours. RuSSia colludes with Germany against Ukraine, what was blatantly exposed by Chancellor Merkel’s statement the very day after the RuSSian takeover of Crimea that any military response is not on the table, before the UK and the US reacted. Beware of Germany and RuSSia, as the future Trump administration is composed of mostly anti-RuSSian politicians and former military men. Also the US Congress is very anti-RuSSian with a wide bipartisan consensus.

    1. Avatar туфтуф says:

      I am more worried about the announced Russo-Chinese military alliance. If Trump fails to drive a wedge between the two super powers, the end of the Western civilization may be nigh.

      1. Avatar laker48 says:

        Well, dear shvertsep, one may always dream. China needs RuSSia as a supplier of cheap raw materials and some lands in eastern Siberia. What China needs is trading and exporting its cheap junk to the West. Face the facts! The Power of Siberia gas pipeline construction project has been significantly delayed by the Chinese and China demands that RuSSia plough at least three billion dollars more into the project, while the project Power of Siberia 2 has been indefinitely postponed by the Chinese. Guess why the New Silk Road bypasses Dwarfstan from the south and ends in Poland, where land and maritime logistic and distribution centres are already being built, not in Germany or RuSSia! Don’t you see that China is rounding up RuSSia? I live in western Canada, exactly in British Columbia, and deal with the Chinese on an almost daily basis. Most of them are anything but RuSSia-friendly.

        1. Avatar туфтуф says:

          True. And Russia needs advanced tech and investment. Marriages of convenience always work well.

          1. Avatar laker48 says:

            The Chinese don’t have a habit of giving anything away below the market price. They’ll suck the last drop of blood from RuSSia.

          2. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Good! Market value is acceptable. Russia as the rihest country in the world can afford it. And China on the “growth spur” (territorially) needs Russias sophisticated weapon systems, faced with American threat in South China sea.

          3. Avatar laker48 says:

            I’ve already figured it out that you’re stupid, but didn’t realise the hopelessness of your stupidity. China is now much more advanced in the field of military technology than RuSSia, while the most advanced post-Soviet defence industrial sector facilities are now controlled by the government in Kyiv. Do you think that the Yanks and other NATO supporters of Ukraine will gift them to RuSSia?

            The Ukrainian instead of RuSSian rocket engines are going to be installed in US cargo space ships to the space station as of this year. Three RuSSian warships will be commissioned for service with an over two year delay because Ukraine has slapped sanctions and embargo on delivery of gas turbines to RuSSia. I stay on top of these things. Ukraine will likely never fall within the RuSSian sphere of influence, or at least not in a foreseeable future.

          4. Avatar туфтуф says:

            I know and its good for the world. Unipolar world is on the wane, so is a myth about universal values.

          5. Avatar Alex George says:

            Okay, so now you are attempting to change hte subject, okay whatever.

            But the truth is that Russia’s future lies as a colony of China

          6. Avatar туфтуф says:

            I like the idea…..Both Russia and China are aware that the West treats them as inferior races (similarly they yreat Ukrainians-that is the reason why they organized genocide of Ukrainian people) and if Russia falls, its China’s turn to be destroyed. Hence the military alliance.

          7. Avatar laker48 says:

            China, as opposite to RuSSia, has a vibrant diaspora all over the globe and is much more pro-western than many in RuSSia think. The Chinese diaspora ins Canada and the US is almost five million strong and some 50 million in Asia. All of them maintain more or less close ties to China. RuSSian diasporas are fragmented and virtually marginal. http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/11/diasporas

          8. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Russia has a huge diaspora too. But with Russia, most are rich illegals (spies who Russia would denounce in case they re caught) in higher echalins of power.

          9. Avatar laker48 says:

            The best known RuSSian-speaking diaspora who hold positions in upper echelons of society in Canada and the US are Russian-speaking Jews who don’t like or even hate Putin’s RuSSia. The second group are RuSSians and RuSSian-speaking Jews from former Soviet republics. They’re less vocal, as most still have families in RuSSia, but most are anti-Purin. The third group are former KGB officers and their offsprings who function in the grey area between legal business and mafia worlds. They’re few and far between now, but they were a real plague in Canada and the US in the 1990s, where they infiltrated real estate and penny stock markets. They were quietly arrested and handed over by Canadian police to the FBI, as they used Canada as their base for scam operations in the US. I personally helped in the 1990s set up and get arrested by the FBI in Point Roberts quite a few RuSSian gangsters from Vancouver. All are serving life sentences in California slammers. The fourth group are RuSSian multimillionaire oligarchs and multimillionaire RuSSian hockey stars, but they’re few and far between, thus easy to follow and spy upon.
            Both Chinese and RuSSian diasporas in Canada and the US are infiltrated by government moles and special services.

          10. Avatar Murf says:

            He is a delusional idiot who thinks every thing in Dwafistan is just peachy. He says he doesn’t live there but he sure it just great.

          11. Avatar laker48 says:

            He’s a typical katsap/pro-katsap troll sowing doubt and introducing distraction into any discussion based on merit by coming up with outlandish wishful thinking of the Kremlin ministry of truth.
            Here are the main talking points scripted for RuSSian trolls littering comment boards where Ukrainian issues are discussed:
            “1. Kyiv must succumb to Kremlin demands on Donbas (constitution reform to provide ‘special status’ for Donbas, federalization, total amnesty to participants of the conflict, elections);
            2. The EU leaders are pressing on Kyiv to succumb to those demands;
            3. Ukraine sabotages the Minsk agreements;
            4. Donbas wants to be part of Russia, and
            5. The West has abandoned Ukraine.”
            No comments necessary.

        2. Avatar туфтуф says:

          A marriage of convenience is the best one.

          1. Avatar Murf says:

            Until it’s no longer convenient.
            Which can happen rapidly when dealing with China.
            Old saying; “gold only buys obedience.”
            Ir will be interesting to see what the Russian reaction to China draining Lake Baikal to irrigate western China will be?

          2. Avatar туфтуф says:

            China has a very good historical consciousness. It knows the West regards as inferior race and if Russia falls, it will be China’s turn. Therefore, from Chinese point of view, Russia MUST NOT FALL.

          3. Avatar Murf says:

            You are right they do.
            So which country has stolen more of their land than any other?
            That would be Russia under Alexander II. What’s more they want it back.-
            Keep that fact in mind at all times then you talk about Sino/ Russian relations.

          4. Avatar туфтуф says:

            In those days he was right to do so. But he left the ethnic Chinese untouched. Many became Orthodox of their own free will. A bit later the anglicised West commited genocide of Chinese people during, before and after opium wars. Similar to what Brits and Septic tanks did to red Indians. Genocide seems to be “civilised” countries’ speciality.

          5. Avatar Turtler says:

            “In those days he was right to do so. But he left the ethnic Chinese
            untouched. Many became Orthodox of their own free will. A bit later the
            anglicised West commited genocide of Chinese people during, before and after opium wars. Similar to what Brits and Septic tanks did to red
            Indians. Genocide seems to be “civilised” countries’ speciality.”

            I see somebody’s trying to take advantage of the general public’s lack of knowledge about 19th century history (and particularly 19th century Chinese history) to peddle utter hogwash. And racially tinged hogwash too.

            Unfortunately for you, I happen to have spent a fair amount of time studying and wargaming the period, so I know better.

            Let me break this down.

            “. A bit later the anglicised West commited genocide of Chinese people during, before and after opium wars.”

            Hardly. What the West did in China during the 19th century- though often cruel, exploitive, and destructive- was not genocidal and rarely democidal. That is not an excuse for it, it just means that “genocide” has a meaning and you are abusing it.

            Secondly, moron, this is so daft it claims that FRANCE is somehow part of the “anglicised West.”

            The truth that as far as genocide and democide in 19th century China went, the world class heavyweights- BAR NONE- was the Qing Dynasty that ruled over China itself, as can be seen by the outright genocide it practiced against the Dzunghars and Jinchuan, the barely paralleled savagery of the “White Lotus” rebellions and the war with the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom, and its’ bad habit of murdering and torturing Chinese and foreigners who somehow slighted it.

            Next up would probably be the various Chinese rebellions, like the aforementioned Taiping.

            But Third Place- without question- is the Russian Empire.

            “But he left the ethnic Chinese untouched. Many became Orthodox of their own free will.”

            This is so laughably saccharine and dishonest it is hard to take place. Because after the Second Opium war (or trade war, as I like to call it, because while the British were willing to make compromises over opium as a trade good they were not willing to concede to Chinese demands about dominating the trade system as a whole) when the British and French troops entered Beijing they brought along a group of Russian diplomats. During the treaties that followed, those diplomats were able to get the Qing to cede Outer Manchuria and the Amur to them.

            The local troops out East were informed and so was the Tsar, and they were quickly sent to take control of the new territory. Now, China had had a connection and settlements North of the Amur for a few centuries (relatively brief given the history) and the Jurchen had had it for significantly longer. Not a massive population by any means compared to Southern Manchuria or the massive cities of China, but well over a quarter of a million people at least and likely more given attempts to evade the imperial census.

            Now, you might question -if you’re intellectually honest- there are not major populations of Han Chinese and Manchu North or East of the Amur dating back to before Russia’s acquisition. Why there is no old Chinatown (or “Street of the Han People”) in Vladivostok.

            And the reason is remarkably simple. The Russian military *KILLED THEM.* Essentially All of Them. Precisely because the Chinese had objected to Russian colonization and settlement in the region before, and the Imperial government wanted to establish its’ hold over the territory without question by erasing the “undesirable” population that might undermine its’ hold, and open the way for colonization from further West.

            This alone would be damn remarkable, but it actually gets significantly worse. Because after the policy of genocide (yes, actual genocide) and colonization in Outer Manchuria was finished, Russia started getting an interest in Inner Manchuria/Manchuria proper. And that got stronger after the Japanese utterly humiliating the Qing in 1895. Seeing China weaken further, and a rival for the region getting stronger, the Russians stepped in with some other foreign powers to convince Japan to withdraw from Manchuria, and then the Tsar’s army occupied Dailan (or Port Arthur) for themselves.

            If the Chinese who survived the war and remembered the Japanese massacre on the peninsula in 1894 thought things might get better, they would prove Sadly Mistaken. Especially after the Qing Court sparked a wider revolt- the “Boxer” Rebellion- against foreigners, internal reformers, and Chinese Christians. While most of the focus was on the multinational troops sent to relieve Beijing, what most don’t realize is that the Russian government sent more than three times that many into Manchuria as a whole. They would have effectively complete control for another five years.

            And what did they do, you ask?

            Glad you asked.

            https://books.google.com/books?id=AalFAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA170#v=onepage&q&f=false

            “…nearly 8,000 unarmed men, women, and children were driven at the point of the bayonet into the raging Amur, until—as one of the Russian officers who participated in that brutal murder told me at Chin-Wang-Tao ( Ed note: Qinhuangdao) in 1900—” the execution of my orders made me almost sick, for it seemed as though I could have walked across the river on the bodies of the floating dead.”
            Not a Chinaman escaped, except forty who were employed by a leading foreign merchant who ransomed their lives at a thousand rubles each.”

            https://books.google.com/books?id=QiM2pF5PDR8C&printsec=frontcover&dq=manchu+han&hl=en&ei=oOmsTJi3G8T_lgeAroHdCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=manchus%20took%20part%20metropolitan%20banners%20peking%20field%20force%20tiger%20spirit%20division%20center%20division&f=false

            “The Cossacks had come in, burnt the villages, and stolen the cattle and horses.”

            And I could go on. I really could. Because THIS WAS ROUTINE.

            Unlike the shameful pillaging, rape, and murder that accompanied the Allied conquest of Peking, these were directed massacres dedicated to help cement Russian power in the region and open up the possibility of further colonization. In other words, genocide.

            There’s a REASON Why most in Manchuria including the various bandit gangs- supported the Japanese when the Russo-Japanese war broke out.

            There is a REASON no Russian soldier would be welcome in the region until 1945, after almost two decades under the deranged Early Showa IJA and nearly half a century after these events.

            So please, STFU, stop lying (to others and if applicable yourself), and do research next time.

            “Similar to what Brits and Septic tanks did to red Indians.”

            Ah, racism and historical stupidity meshed together.

            Firstly, there was relatively little actual genocide during the Anglo-American/Indian wars. Plenty of ethnic cleansing to be sure, and far too much murder, but rare was the intention to outright wipe somebody out. There’s a reason why the Powhattan- the first “Red Indian” nation the English colonials encountered- are still around, even if in a much diminished form.

            That is not to say that genocide did not happen, in particular during the exceedingly bloody period in the mid to late 17th century, when standard operating procedure on all sides was to “Find you enemy’s home, burn it down, kill and enslave everybody you can, and destroy the food they stockpiled for the Winter.” But I’m guessing you don’t know much about that period, do you?

            It’s also worth noting that this nadir of relations between the Amerindians and the Anglo-Americans was basically the HISTORICAL STANDARD for relations between the government of His Majesty the Tsar and their Siberian subjects, dating back to Yermak’s rampage in Sibir and only *starting* to let up in 1762, when the Russian government decided NOT to continue pursuing the wholesale genocide of the Chukchi.

            That does not make the horrible, corrupt Indian Agency system, the long tradition of US Government perfidy in its’ treaties with the Amerindians, or the reservations good. It just means that the “anglicized West” has nothing on Russian history as far as genocide goes.

          6. Avatar Murf says:

            Yeah I am sure they have forgotten all about the theft of literal millions of square Kms of land. I mean it’s not like the Chinese have a long memory or anything.
            Nor have set them selves on an expansionist program or any thing which seems to include Burma.
            Everything is going to be just fine.
            Why?
            Ahh because Russians want it to?

          7. Avatar Alex George says:

            Actually China understands the opposite. The west has made concessions to China and made reparations for 19th century thefts. Russia never has. And the Chinese have forgotten nothing.

          8. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Reparations cannot anull genocide. They know it.

          9. Avatar Alex George says:

            And since genocide didn’t happen, they don’t have a problem

          10. Avatar туфтуф says:

            In 1764 a British commander ordered that blankets with small pox be given to red Indians. That was the first ever example of using biological warfare as WMD. Thousands died. Genocidal action. I cannot quote his words here cus l find them repulsive.

          11. Avatar Alex George says:

            And now you are trying to change the subject again. You asserted that western nations committed “genocide” against the Chinese. That is rubbish.

          12. Avatar laker48 says:

            This claw of educated garlic applies one of the main trolling rules from katsap troll factory manuals.

          13. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Genocide is genocide. GWB should look for WMD destruction under British table.

          14. Avatar Alex George says:

            No, you are just trying to change the subject because you have been caught out. You asserted that western nations committed “genocide” against the Chinese. That is rubbish.

          15. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Well biological warfare is not genocide? WMD are used to kill indiscriminately men, women and children. To me its genocide. And the letters of the perpetrators confirm it.

          16. Avatar Alex George says:

            And again, just trying to change the subject.

            You asserted that western nations committed “genocide” against the Chinese. That is rubbish.

          17. Avatar laker48 says:

            Block this idiot, as I did!

          18. Avatar laker48 says:

            That idiot becomes a nuisance. We’d have to report him to the Editor. After three or four “comments” off topic he would have been permanently banned from commenting on The Economist’s comment boards.

          19. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Lemme add 2 more: potato famine and 70 million Hindus wasted during the Raj.

          20. Avatar Alex George says:

            You are just trying to change the subject.

            You asserted that western nations committed “genocide” against the Chinese. That is rubbish.

          21. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Potato famine? 70 million dead Hindus during the Raj? Shall l go on? Hitler ws a choir boy compared to that lot.

          22. Avatar Alex George says:

            Add as many irrelevant points as you like. You are just trying to change the subject.

            You asserted that western nations committed “genocide” against the Chinese. That is rubbish.

          23. Avatar туфтуф says:

            I just added the red Indians. WMD.

          24. Avatar laker48 says:

            Can you check what’s the topic of the opinion column we’re commenting on? Stop using trolling techniques if you don’t want to be reported and banned from this site! Kapish?

          25. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Topic: Anglosaxon genocides. Let me add 2 more: potato famine in lreland and 70 million killed during the Raj.

          26. Avatar laker48 says:

            You’re reported and blocked. Bye, bye!

          27. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Oh but why? I had nothing to do with the said genocides. What if l apologise? Moreover, 70 million dead Hindus, compared to the ppl who survived may not maybe be classed as as genocide. I admit l dnt know the definition of genocide. I might have made an honest mistake out of ignorance. Pls dnt block me!!!

          28. Avatar Alex George says:

            You are just trying to change the subject.

            You asserted that western nations committed “genocide” against the Chinese. That is rubbish.

          29. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Lemme add 2 more: potato famine and 70 million dead Hindus during the Raj. Even ur mate Hitler was not that efficient.

          30. Avatar Alex George says:

            Add as many irrelevant points as you like. You are just trying to change the subject.

            You asserted that western nations committed “genocide” against the Chinese. That is rubbish.

          31. Avatar Alex George says:

            Its not a marriage. More of a colonization and hegemony.

            China dominates Russia already and will do so more

          32. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Its normal and natural that a stronger partner dominates.

      2. Avatar Brent says:

        Hey TOTO, those 1.4 billion Chinese could absord the 140 million Russians very easily into an “alliance”, but would they want to absorb the cost of modernizing such a backward cesspool nation whose only industrial production is LADA’s and vodka?

        At least you Russians would become cheap labor for your new Chinese masters….

        1. Avatar laker48 says:

          There some 105 million ethnic RuSSians within the borders of the fascist RuSSian Federation, most of them chronic alcoholics, druggies and AIDS/HIV carriers. There are over 100 million more males than females in China. The number game is simply devastating for Dwarfstan.

        2. Avatar туфтуф says:

          Thats good l think?

      3. Avatar Alex George says:

        There will be no alliance between Russia and China, although the Chinese will always smile and say the right things to Russia.

        1. Avatar туфтуф says:

          There ALREADY is. Are you dumb? Lol

          1. Avatar Alex George says:

            No there isn’t.

          2. Avatar laker48 says:

            The only dumb or playing dumb person here is you.

          3. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Playing dumb, while giving you raw intel. It makes me laugh how the truth sounds by far less plausible than MSM lies. Lol

          4. Avatar laker48 says:

            You and LIEvrov live in the post-truth world, so your “raw intel” has a negative net value. https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/word-of-the-year/word-of-the-year-2016

          5. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Oops….lol

          6. Avatar laker48 says:

            Trump’s Goldendoodle’s name is Patton after Trump’s hero General George Patton. As far as I remember, Patton was a great enthusiast of RuSSia and RuSSians. Here are some quotes of his:

            “The Russians are Mongols. They are Slavs and a lot of them used to be ruled by ancient Byzantium. From Genghis Khan to Stalin, they have not changed. They never will and we will never learn, at least, not until it is too late.”

            “Poland is under Russian domination, so is Hungary, so is Czechoslovakia, and so is Yugoslavia; and we sit happily by and think that everybody loves us.”

            “We have destroyed what could have been a good race of people and we are about to replace them with Mongolian savages and all of Europe with communism.”

            “General Anders of the Polish 2 Corps told me that if his corps got between a German Army and a Russian Army he would have trouble deciding which direction to fight.”

            “If we have to fight them, now is the time. From now on, we will get weaker and they will get stronger.”

            “The difficulty in understanding the Russians we do not take cognizance of the fact he is not a European, but an Asiatic, therefore thinks deviously. We can no more understand a Russian than Chinese or a Japanese. From what I have seen of them I have no particular desire to understand them except to ascertain how much lead or iron it takes to kill them. In addition to their other amiable characteristics, the Russians have no regard for human life and they are all out son of bitches, barbarians and chronic drunks.”

            “It is said that for the first week after the Russians took Berlin, all women who ran were shot and those who did not were raped. I could have taken Berlin if I had been allowed.”

            The Russians have a lot of new heavy tanks of which they are very proud. The Marshall asked me how I like them. I said that I did not and we had quite an argument. Apparently I am the first person ever to disagree with him.”

      4. Avatar Turtler says:

        “I am more worried about the announced Russo-Chinese military
        alliance.”

        Maybe.

        “If Trump fails to drive a wedge between the two super powers,
        the end of the Western civilization may be nigh.”

        Perhaps, but I doubt it.

        The overall Stalin-Mao alliance was much stronger (and the USSR in that period was much stronger than the PRC is today) than this would be. That doesn’t mean people should get complacent, but it does mean the chances of it are low.

        “For that purpose he might offer Ukraine on the plate to Surkov. That was Surkov’s plan all along. ”

        The problem with that brilliant plan is that in a very real way, Ukraine is not Trump’s to “offer.” Even compared to Czechoslovakia. Because while Czechoslovakia was an official ally of Britain and France and could be pressured quite directly to accept something like Munich, Ukraine is not. And it can still fight handily against the Russian troops for the foreseeable future.

      5. Avatar laker48 says:

        If you’re worried, it’s your problem, not mine. 🙂

        1. Avatar туфтуф says:

          Are we slow? U know what a frying pan is used for? I suggest you take it off ur head.

          1. Avatar laker48 says:

            I’d suggest, though, that you go to English grammar school before writing in this language about anything. Got it? So long! 🙂

        2. Avatar туфтуф says:

          If one doesnt care about politiccs, politics will take care of them. My friend Aristotelis.

          1. Avatar laker48 says:

            Your poor English grammar and spelling skills notwithstanding, Aristoteles would have never been a friend of an idiot of your ilk.

          2. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Aristotelis. Not …es

          3. Avatar laker48 says:

            I don’t give a dead rat’s a** to an Aristotelis, a friend of yours’ opinion. Got it? Aristoteles and Aristotle is someone I know of as the author of “Lysistrata”, for example. So long!

          4. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Is. Not es.

          5. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Is not es. Greeks pronounce n with a tail as i.

        3. Avatar туфтуф says:

          U r right. As long as Russian army is there to protect Crimean ppl from protoukros and control the Med and look after its nuclear weapons which are situated there in a responsible manner. If ukro ultras got ahold of such powerful weapon systems, being undtable, to put it mildly, they could endanger not only Russia, but the whole world. And if Russia gave them its 2 bases in Syria, chaos would definitely ensue.

          1. Avatar Alex George says:

            ??? Russia give Ukrainians its bases in Syria? What drugs are you on?

            Don’t worry about the Crimea – its Ukrainian. The Russians will soon leave and all the facilities they have built there will belong to the Ukrainian people.

  4. Avatar туфтуф says:

    It makes one happy that sensible people come into power in the US.

    1. Avatar zorbatheturk says:

      Putin fondling your willie is what makes you happy, troll.

  5. Avatar Dirk Smith says:

    The only deal should be removal of the Tambov mafia from the kremlin; perhaps then ruSSia can join the 21st Century.

  6. Avatar veth says:

    Crimea is Ukraine.

    1. Avatar laker48 says:

      Of course it is.

      1. Avatar veth says:

        Only iliterate people like Trump think otherwise.

        1. Avatar laker48 says:

          Do’t listen to Trump, as he’s a showman with the charisma of a high school bully. There’s no point in offending him, however, as he’s been elected President by the American people. He’s more literate than you and people of your ilk will ever be.

          1. Avatar veth says:

            Elected with 3 million less votes then his opponent…………

          2. Avatar laker48 says:

            Your comment betrays your total ignorance of the US presidential electoral system designed the way that give sparsely populated, nevertheless economically important states comparable powers to those with huge clusters of city dwellers who are mostly redistributors and consumers of the fruits provided by those hardworking folks. Statistics can be compared to bikini swimsuits; they expose almost everything while obscuring what’s the most essential. Who’s illiterate, then?

          3. Avatar veth says:

            TRUMP. THE MOST ILLITERATE PRESIDENT EVER ELECTED WORLD WIDE…ENJOY~THIS PUTIN PROXY!
            TILLERSON, THE MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS HAS THE HIGHEST RUSSIAN MEDAL..HAHAHAAH GOP, ALL COMMIES.

          4. Avatar laker48 says:

            So what? We cannot change this and have to put up with. The American people have spoken, like it or not, and president Poroshenko had better take his fight against corruption to heart if he doesn’t want to be unsaddled by Mikheil Saakashvili and his party. The present cast of chatacters in the Verkhovna Rada and the government represents the oligarchs who pay them under the table and many Ukrainian MPs are simply saboteurs. The Trump administration won’t finance these dens of thieves.

          5. Avatar veth says:

            TRUMP HAS A DEBT OF 300 MILLION TO COMPANIES OWNED BY VLADDY..ENJOY.

          6. Avatar laker48 says:

            LOL! Are you delusional or what? Mark my words! Trump will likely send to Ukraine the Javelins and other deadly weapons, but he won’t release a single greenback of US help without maintaining full control over how it’s been spent. The US invested too much into Ukraine to let it go to RuSSia, but the festival of larceny, thievery and incompetence there is coming to an abrupt and screeching halt. Poroshenko may even face a rebellion if he doesn’t comply.

          7. Avatar veth says:

            Putin: Trump , You will recognize Crimea is Russia and I forget about your debt to me? Trump: DEAL!

          8. Avatar laker48 says:

            I’ve though you’re a bright person, but you’ve just proven your ignorance beyond any reasonable doubt. I don’t see any point in humiliating you anymore.

          9. Avatar veth says:

            Spoken like a Trump-voter.

          10. Avatar laker48 says:

            I’m not American and I personally don’t like Trump, and couldn’t stand him as the host of “The Apprentice” TV show. Politics, especially American politics is, however, a different animal. Trump stands more than fair chances of becoming another Ronald Reagan.

  7. Avatar laker48 says:

    One of Trump’s Secretary of Defence James “Mad Dog” Mattis’s memorable quotes: “Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.”
    Don’t you think Trump may live by the same Gospel?