Op-ed: What’s there to discuss with aggressors?

Serhiy Zhadan, Ukrainian poet and novelist, winner of “BBC Book of the Year” contest, offers a poignant critique of the Western intellectuals' approach to the Russia-Ukraine war.

Serhiy Zhadan, Ukrainian poet and novelist, winner of “BBC Book of the Year” contest, offers a poignant critique of the Western intellectuals' approach to the Russia-Ukraine war. 

2015/08/20 • Analysis & Opinion

Article by: Serhiy Zhadan

I was invited to Germany for a literary festival. They proposed that I take part in a discussion with a Russian writer, a supporter of “Novorossiya,” who after visiting Donbas has written about the heroic insurgents there and fiercely denounces the Kyiv junta. At first I declined, but then I thought – do they really not understand how it looks from here? Don’t they see there is no possibility of even a hint of agreement, that the idea of a discussion is a non-starter? Or perhaps they don’t care.

Then what’s the point? To put on a show, have a scandal, get public attention? Such discussions are without a doubt more entertaining than those between like-minded people. People who are basically in agreement are unlikely to get upset, start shouting, make personal attacks. What sense is there in organizing a discussion if the participants aren’t going to make personal attacks? From the perspective of the organizers, there is none. From the perspective of intrigues and drama, also none.

But I for one am not interested in intrigues. Nor am I interested in personal attacks, especially when the discussion concerns war—that is, people, both living and the dead.

Somehow I have no interest in being part of a show for Western intellectuals striving to look as politically correct and objective as possible, in their minds fairly giving “both parties to the conflict” the opportunity to be heard, sincerely believing that each “side” should be open to dialogue and shouldn’t consider its position and situation as somehow special.

That this means in effect that the dialogue would be between the occupier and those who have been occupied – this interests few people. These are details, nuances, not worth attention. The main thing is a readiness to talk, a willingness to be constructive. That is, to be constructive in all things, and that includes in communicating with the occupier. And the easiest thing would be to accept the invitation and hope that the “other side” is also ready to engage constructively. And then during the discussion to listen to the arguments of “the other side” based on historical determinacy and geopolitical logic, concepts and strategies, and on feelings of revanchism and condescending indulgence. And all your words, words about  people who are dear to you, the place where you grew up, the air you breathed all your life – these words would be smashed against cold metallic geopolitics, about this “truth of the other side.”

After all, from the point of view of the impartial Western intellectual, everyone has his own truth, no matter on whose territory the battles are being waged, regardless of who started the conflict, regardless of whether the “other side” acknowledges its involvement. And the other side, of course, does not acknowledge its involvement. On the contrary, it argues that it has nothing to do with this war, and this is why the other side allows itself to put forward accusations and make predictions and offer advice and patronizing pity for the unfortunates who do not understand that they are doomed to remain in the icy embrace of geopolitics. This is how I see such efforts to be constructive. Perhaps it doesn’t show  tolerance of the “other side” and probably it’s not too civilized. Quite possibly.

“You intellectuals should set an example of common sense in this war,” a Berlin writer said to me.  “You need to show good will and a readiness to compromise. You have to be willing to engage in discussions with your opponents.” “Wait,” I say. “My opponents call me a fascist.” “It doesn’t matter,” she says. “You have to do to it.” “Wait,” I say. “But the truth is that I am not a fascist.” “It doesn’t matter,” she insists.  “Your discussions taking place here in Germany – with supporters of Ukraine gathered together, it’s masturbation.  Who finds that interesting?”

She may be right that there is little that’s interesting in such discussions — no fights, no cursing, no pyrotechnics, and the main thing is that no one is calling anyone a fascist.

This writer is fluent in Russian and knows many Russian authors, in particular those who call for a military assault on Kharkiv and Kyiv, thus proposing to expand the borders of their country at the cost of the “other side’s” territory. She has an interest in military conflicts, visited the Caucasus, and wants to come to Donbas. Not a political but a purely writerly interest. Very correct and civilized – just another military conflict on the map of Europe. How many there have been, how many more to come. Nothing special, same as ever.

But those locals who refuse to accept the role of simply “one party to the conflict,” who cannot calmly talk about this war, who call for the condemnation of the aggression, annexation and occupation – these locals inspire a sense of justice, and inspire sense in general. They are not interested in sitting at the table with the offenders. It is difficult to deal with these locals. It is hard to understand them, it is hard to sympathize with their problems, it is hard to accept their truth as one’s own.

Sometimes I think that a person begins to believe in death only when that person is dying. And then that person believes sincerely, passionately and deeply. However, not for long.

Translated by: Marta Baziuk
Edited by: Kirill Mikhailov

  • Brent

    Would these same Western intellectuals feel it was their duty to ‘negotiate and understand’ with a burglar who breaks into their house and assaults their child?

    Russia’s actions are criminal, and in fact, terrorist with their continuing FSB involvement in bombings and subversion throughout Ukraine. It’s too bad these supposed Western intellectuals have allowed themselves to become more useful idiots for Putin.

    • Randolph Carter

      I agree – it would be interesting to see if they would ‘negotiate and understand’ a Russian army platoon next door, conducting 24 hour training exercises using live fire. Throw in a Tornado rocket launcher just to make sure the troops are fully trained.

      • George Evans

        that is precisely what the Russians are experiencing…live exercises in Latvia and Estonia..right on their border…US<Canadian<UK ,German "trainers" in Ukraine to "help"….

        why is the US investing so much financial and political capital in the Ukraine???

        I ask you to THINK…

        • Randolph Carter

          I don’t know if you’ve <been="" <coding="" <HTML="" too long, but I can't say I blame Latvia or Estonia, given Russia's history with Ukraine. From the Washington Post:

          "From destroyers in the Baltic Sea to paratroopers over Georgia’s skies to camouflaged reservists in Estonia’s birch forests, drills across the former Eastern Bloc this past week were a stark new sign of worries about Kremlin aggression. Estonia in recent days held its biggest military exercises since the end of the Cold War, and other nations adjoining Russia have taken forceful steps to avoid Ukraine’s fate.

          Training efforts have swept the region, and in the past week alone separate exercises took place in Poland, Lithuania, Georgia, Estonia and the Baltic Sea. Military planners said they were a practical attempt to drill new lessons about how Russia wages war. But they were also intended as a warning that unlike in Crimea, where Ukrainian forces surrendered without firing a shot, the Kremlin would face stiff resistance if it tried its tactics anywhere in NATO territory. U.S. military trainers are also in Ukraine trying to strengthen that nation’s fighting forces even as a war burns in the eastern part of the country."

        • Randolph Carter

          I don’t know the reason for the pseudo-HTML, but from the Washington Post:

          “From destroyers in the Baltic Sea to paratroopers over Georgia’s skies to camouflaged reservists in Estonia’s birch forests, drills across the former Eastern Bloc this past week were a stark new sign of worries about Kremlin aggression. Estonia in recent days held its biggest military exercises since the end of the Cold War, and other nations adjoining Russia have taken forceful steps to avoid Ukraine’s fate.

          Training efforts have swept the region, and in the past week alone separate exercises took place in Poland, Lithuania, Georgia, Estonia and the Baltic Sea. Military planners said they were a practical attempt to drill new lessons about how Russia wages war. But they were also intended as a warning that unlike in Crimea, where Ukrainian forces surrendered without firing a shot, the Kremlin would face stiff resistance if it tried its tactics anywhere in NATO territory. U.S. military trainers are also in Ukraine trying to strengthen that nation’s fighting forces even as a war burns in the eastern part of the country.”

          • George Evans

            Kennedy sure chucked a wobbly when the Russians planned to support Cuba against further US aggression…

            He won that…but had to move the US missiles from Turkey..the real concern for the Russians…

            the present situation seems very similar…

            the US financed and organised the coup in Ukraine…ask Nuland…
            the dead 7,000 in the Donbass paid the price…so please don,t try to suggest any noble reason for the US adventurism…

            i sincerely apologize to the millions of ordinary ,good Americans who are powerless to stop the out of control behavior of the neocons…

            and don,t waste time talking about fine sounding Democracy…when the US electoral,political and Judicial systems are the best money can buy…

            ordinary good Americans are having their country trashed around them…and I feel the greatest sympathy for them in their plight…

            I hope things get better….

          • Randolph Carter

            OK, so you’re putting the whole Russia/Ukraine conflict at the USA’s door? Which coup are you referring to (Tymoshenko -> Yanukovich or Yanukovich -> Poroshenko)? Why would the USA finance a coup in Ukraine and the destruction of the Donbass? I’m not being sarcastic or defensive, I’m genuinely curious to see what evidence you have. I can’t see the benefit unless you’re counting on military contracts.

            Living in the USA, I’ve seen the extent to which politics is manipulated by the wealthy, especially since the Supreme Count ruling where companies could be considered people and therefore make huge contributions to those who will further their goals. I doubt things will get better (at least in the near future) and they will undoubtedly get worse.

            Personally, the classic example for me is the money pit referred to as the F-35 fighter-bomber. The USA expects to spend 2T on this piece of junk; one in which the entire rear of one jet caught on fire and was so badly damaged that it could not be repaired, only used as spare parts. The heads-up rear display shows four or five images of an incoming attacker, so which does the pilot shoot at (remember, it’s a one-person plane so no copilot to actually look)? No pilot will take it above Mach 4, despite claims that it will both fight and deploy bombs at Mach 9.

            I wrote to my Senators (New Hampshire) and requested that they kill this never-ending supply of pork. Their response was a bunch of hand jive about “a stronger America” and “21st century defense” where it really came down to several NH contractors having contracts for this piece of junk.

          • George Evans

            only when the US can borrow no more money will the gravy train slow….

            before that,the ordinary poor Americans will be hit first…already retirement benefits and medicaid are under fire…

            projecting forward..one only has to look at Greece today…ordinary people are being subjected to the most extraordinary AUSTERITY…a buzzword for ripping off the poor…

            I,m not sure if you can head that off,randy, but you sure should try…it gives me absolutely no pleasure to suggest the train is coming…

            I haven,t noticed the US economists talking about AUSTERITY..because it has terrible connotations after what it has done in Europe…but that is what they are after…

            I ask you to do what you can to stop it…it is bad economics…the Greek finance minister knew..so he had to go…

            back to your point…..you would get far more information about the $5 billion coup financed and organised by the US from Victoria Nuland…

          • nikkkom

            > only when the US can borrow no more money will the gravy train slow….

            US won;t be able to borrow $$$ from the Fed…. why exactly that scenario is possible? (Hint: Fed can create unlimited amount of money…)

            > I haven,t noticed the US economists talking about AUSTERITY..because it has terrible connotations after what it has done in Europe…

            Germany had “horrible” austerity program in 2005, when they balanced their budget by reducing spending. Now Germany has the strongest economy in EU.

            If you feel sick, go to the doctor now. Don’t wait until you faint on the street, like Greece did.

          • George Evans

            the card has been maxed,nuke…

            of course the Fed can print what they like…patently they have…

            if the rich…and the overseas bondholders remain willing to accept negative interest rates..that is fine…

            but those days are pretty much over…when the “normalize” the interest on the $20,000,000,000,000 will be unsustainable…and more so if the Fed continues to PRINT….

            what would the interest be on $40,000,000,000,000,nuke…

            Us trade balances are still in deficit..as are US budget balances…so how will the debt not increase…

            so…here comes the AUSTERITY (for thepoor)…but it won.t be called that…it has a bad odor…

            tighten your belt,nuke…or maybe talk to people about doing away with the 15th battle fleet….

          • nikkkom

            US can continue to print more dollars as long as most of other countries have currencies which are much less reliable than the dollar.

            Looking at idiot Russians, Greeks, Venezuelans etc, I’d say US dollar is safe for many decades to come :)

          • George Evans

            that,nuke,is precisely the kind of thinking that got the US to where it is today,,,with the card maxed out….

            the ordinary American deserves better leadership than that…

            Ron Paul did a great job trying to alert the American people to this…but the neocons drowned him out…

            the Donald is trying the to alert them,now….

            the US CANNOT continue to print as many more dollars,nuke…the card is MAXED OUT…

            the first steps cannot be taken to rectify the situation until you see that….

            maybe,in that case,disaster beckons…..

          • Brent

            D*PSH*T, the $5 billion was given in aid to Ukraine since 1991 when Ukraine declared independence. In that same time, the U.S. gave over $18 billion in aid to Russia. INCLUDING $454 million in 2012. When Russia’s economy was strong and your ‘rubble’ wasn’t worth 1.47 U.S. PENNIES. And all you keep doing is blathering on about “Kennedy”, “Cuba”, “Victoria Nuland’s cookies”, some fictitious “CIA coup”……

          • George Evans

            you are in cuckoo land .bent…

            you make things up…you never let the truth stand in the way of a good story…

            and while you waste your and everybody else,s time on your bs…people are dying…

            think about it,bent…

          • CanRus

            ‘George’ hates the USA, and all countries who are on friendly terms with the USA. That’s all the ‘evidence’ it needs. It’s also trolling mainly for attention. Parroting Kremlin propaganda on Ukrainian sites is its current tactic to get some.

          • George Evans

            candy spends his days with a bunch of Ukrainian trollops…tryind to be as offensive as possible…as in a contest between small delinquent boys…

            when his distorted logic is exposed..he resorts to abuse…he is a bully,at heart…

            but that is fine…he should just keep venting….

          • Brent

            You don’t deserve anything better than being abused because all you do is regurgitate the same old Kremlin lies and propaganda. You do it on every site you post. If you had ONE original and erudite smart thought in your head instead of the same nonsense you wouldn’t get insulted by EVERYONE on EVERY SITE you visit. You’re just like Russia…..woe is you…no one respects you…..”EVERYONE IS A BULLY”, but you don’t realize you get exactly what you deserve by spreading your same tired lies

          • George Evans

            oh and bent is one of those Ukrainian trollops…probably the most juvenile…leaving pulling out (pulling is in a class of his own)…

            have a good day,bent….

          • Brent

            He’s a blathering idiot. All he does is whine about Russian propaganda about how they were ‘wronged’ and don’t get the respect they deserve and that Ukraine is “Russia’s territory”. Typical mindless troll that can’t see how Russia is collapsing under the mismanagement of Putin’s mafia government. He’ll probably blame the U.S. for letting Putin steal $200 billion from Russia too….

          • George Evans

            at least he didn,t steal the Ukraine,s gold,bent…

          • nikkkom

            “the US financed and organised the coup in Ukraine…”

            …while Russia did not, I repeat, did not, interfere in Ukraine. That $15bn loan from Kremlin to Yanukovych, it is a figment of my imagination.

            LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

          • George Evans

            you started off alright,nuke..they did finance and organise the coup…

            you poor brainwashed sod…

          • Brent

            The “FICTITIOUS COUP” from Putin’s nightmare that he keeps scaring all of his mindless sheeple with….there’s no hope for you. I hope you’re smart enough to figure out for yourself when to take a bathroom break.

          • George Evans

            you,ve lost it ,bent…

            you must wake up to reality some time…a rude awakening in your case…and you look good in your picture….

          • Brent

            Kennedy and Cuba happened over 50 years ago….Stepan Bandera was assassinated before that….and you’re still blathering on like a trained sheeple about these things now?!?!? GET OVER IT ALREADY. THE SOVIET UNION COLLAPSED. THE NEO USSR WILL COLLAPSE AS WELL. I hope you packed away some of that illegal cheese so you don’t go hungry….I hope you get smarter….

          • George Evans

            thanks bent..

            I fear you won,t…you,ve lost it in all the abuse in which you surround yourself …very sad ,really

            much more sad that people are being killed by your kind of mentality…if you grow up some day you may feel guilty…you should…

        • Brent

          Boo f**king hoo to Russia and you!!! Whining about NATO forces undergoing drills when Russia has been doing the exact same thing on Ukraine’s borders for over a year, as well as right next to the Baltics and the Arctic. All you do is whine about “Western aggression” while continually demanding “Russia’s interests” be honored. Such a hypocrite…….such a stooge….hopefully you can think for yourself when Russia collapses to save your sorry a$$

          • George Evans

            I don,t hear the Russians complaining…but the US neocons sure do…shouting from the rooftops….

            the pictures are improving as your posts are degenerating,bent…
            but I did prefer the one of you in a plastic bag….
            just saying….

    • George Evans

      how would they react if a Russian Nuland arrived with $5,000,000,000 to overthrow the local authorities and then used the local police to attack them…..

      the same way the Donbas did…they sacked the Kiev authorities and ,for their trouble, have been attacked,,..leading to wholesale destruction and 7,000 ex Ukrainians dead.Ukraine is now a failed state…on life support…

      a good outcome,eh….

      • chris hawkins

        In the same time that the US gave $5bn to Ukraine (since 1991) it gave over $30bn to Muscovy.

        • George Evans

          they tried to stir up dissent in Russia too,did they, kiss…

          • CanRus

            Note to self (send copies of this note to all charitable organisations and governments throughout the world): Never donate money to any Russian NGO or charity ever again, no matter how noble the cause and how much they need it. Russians thank you, ‘George’.

          • George Evans

            did you voluntarily donate to Victoria Nuland,s charity,candy…or did you leave it to the Government????

          • Brent

            Yeah, we helped her bake those ‘magic cookies’ she gave out to the protesters at Maidan that you stupid sheeple keep blathering on about…..

          • Brent

            Sure doofus. You are so clueless that it is beyond hilarious. It’s kind of sad to see actually….

      • Igor Z

        So Yanuk’s increase of rampant corruption (both at a personal and systemic levels), murdering/intimidation of journalists, back tracking on campaign promises, beating of peaceful protesters, totalitarian dictatorship laws, and finally being kicked out of his party had nothing to do with his demise?

        The 5 billion over 24 years was a drop in the bucket. I think you are just another anti-West Kremlin rear liker.

        • George Evans

          what world are you in,iggy…

          have you been advised what the Kiev fascists are up to,at the moment…

          half of the legitimate President,s family have been murdered..along with countless politicians who do not accept the Right Front,s outrageous conduct…

          7,000 people have been killed in the Donbas…because they sacked the Kiev junta…( a bit like the Kosovars did in Serbia (with Clinton,s help)…

          they allowed the gold (30 tonnes) to be spirited out of Ukraine to the US…that was one of the first acts they did…

          and the $5 billion was spent by Victoria Nuland in less than 2 years…and sure wasn,t spent on charitable work….

          but these items are more tactical….

          the real problem is that the US neocons agenda to hem in and surround Russia with missiles is a major problem for world peace…

          Kennedy objected most strongly (to the point of threatening war) when the USSR set up shop in support of Cuba…he won that..

          the Russians withdrew…and Kennedy withdrew the US missiles from Turkey..(right across the Black sea from the USSR…and the Russian,s real objective)…

          If the US people allow the neocons to continue their fantasies, we can expect more of these situations…already the preparatory work seems to be being done around China,for example…

          Donald Trump is a strange bloke..but in one thing he is 100% right…these neocon adventurers have the potential to destroy what used to be an unenviable record…and I thought the worst was behind us when GeorgeW,Cheney and Rumsfeld exited stage left…

          I apologize to the millions of poor Americans…generally good,decent people trying to make their way in the world…but they need to be alerted as to how they have been and are being duped…by their own people(?)…

          you must think,iggy…

          • Igor Z

            5 Billion in 2 years? Where is that from?

            I’m more advised then you are about Ukraine, so lets get that out of the way. I’m from a “Russian” speaking part of southern Ukraine.

            How come all your points are either from conspiracy sites or directly from the Kremlin’s dialogue? Me thinks you are a troll with nothing of value to add.

            Unless you lived in Ukraine you will never understand how bad the corruption was. No one blamed the corruption on Yanuk… he was blamed for making it worse and not implementing anything that would lead to a brighter future. The people of Ukraine would have overthrew that crook or any other in a matter of time. Nothing to do with money from the West… Only thing the West did was make sure the Kremlin didn’t invade Ukraine like it has many times in the past. Well, I suppose the West didn’t even do all that much in that regard either… Putin still invaded.

          • George Evans

            the Ukraine has a proud history of being run by crooks and oligarchs…none of them last the full term…so what are you saying???

            are arsey and “poor ól Shenko” pure???

            I,d guess you live in Brooklyn,iggy…nice and secure…

            since you are in denial,proof to you is meaningless…tends to be judgmental ,anyway….

            to repeat, the state of Ukraine (not the ethnic group) was formed by the USSR…prior to that being a bone fought over by the Austrians and Poles for centuries…the borders were set to include Crimea and the Donbas (by Gorbachev) because internal borders were of little importance in the USSR…

            on the reunification of Germany and the consequent disbanding of the USSR,Gorbachev swears he had an agreement that NATO would not take one step East(including into the erstwhile East Germany)…Relying on the integrity of the US,the agreement was not enshrined in a formal Agreement…

            Subsequent giant steps to the East culminating in Ukraine..(a step too far) provoked a reaction…President Putin took back the Crimea (a Russian jewel) and ensured the Donbas they would not be slaughtered en masse…

            as it happened,7,000 of them were slaughtered by the fascist Kiev regime and,by extension, their sponsors…..

            by the way, Russia entered Ukraine after WW2 to throw out the Nazis and their fascist collaborators..people being honored in neo-Ukraine…but the enemies of the US and Western allies

            please think.iggy…

          • Igor Z

            You sound like an uneducated fool. A “useful idiot” to use the KGB vernacular.

            Let me correct one of your countless mistakes. It’s just Ukraine. No need for “the”.

            Learn some history that isn’t written by Russian fascists please. Then we can communicate. Until then… There is the battlefield. Apparently Ukraine has some very big powerful friends now… Only Putin could have made such a massive Geo-political mistake.

          • Igor Z

            On second thought I think you’re just a paid Russian troll working in the troll factory.

          • George Evans

            wasted abuse,iggy…

            I,ve been insulted by experts….trollop…..

          • George Evans

            reached the abuse stage,already,iggy…

            and it will always be the Ukraine to me…

            the only powerful friend the Ukraine has is Mother Russia,iggy…

            the only people in the Ukraine to who do not realize this are the junt in Kiev…a real “tower of babel”….

          • Igor Z

            Whatever floats your boat kid. Ukraine will do just fine in the end. Whatever suffering that’s attributed to Russian people has been experienced by Ukrainians in multiplication.

            I hope you are enjoying your life in the West. Many of my Russian friends would kill (figuratively speaking) to be able to have the opportunities the West offers.

            Call the current Ukraine administration whatever you want… It no longer matters to me now that I have you figured out. Keep in mind that the majority of Ukraine supports a pro EU path. It doesn’t matter what the leadership is because it is supposed to be temporary. The current administration will move out of the way for the next pro EU admin.

            Only Russian populace gets hung up on cult figures. It always leads to their downfall. Russian history, wash, rinse, repeat.

            Have a nice day you West hating imbecile.

          • George Evans

            the people of Ukraine will do fine in the end…spot on…

            People in all corners of the world always survive and make their best way in the world….that is one of the main reasons for the millions of people leaving their homes to “do better”for their families…

            we differ, because I would like to make it easier for the poor and abused to improve their situation…

            I cannot do much…but I can try to alert people to what is going on…as far as possible…

            the US causing chaos all around the world is a tragedy for the ordinary people of the world…including in the US….

            we should not be arguing..we need to join to try to create peace….

            if we each convince another ..we may improve things…

          • Brent

            Too funny! You’re trying to argue the history of Ukraine….with someone from Ukraine!!! IGOR LIVES THERE. But typical Russian troll like you ‘knows better’….thanks again for demonstrating your stupidity….

          • George Evans

            you argue all the time with anybody about anything…even though you know nothing,bent…

            but I am not so unkind as to mention it….

            this forum is for opinions…not abuse,bent…

          • Igor Z

            If by preparatory work you mean China’s Communists leading the country to eventual collapse, then sure it is. If you mean China destroying its environment, marginalizing political opposition, allowing rampant corruption, then sure it is again.

            You’re right… The West will step in and bail them out in one way or another like they did post soviet collapse. And sure the bailouts will be on the terms of the creditors. That’s how the world works.

          • George Evans

            to talk of destroying the environment without mentioning the Canadian oilsands,the US fracking.the US dying coal industry, the Alaska drilling etc etc is a bit one sided,iggy…

            the Chinese recognize the damage they have done and are taking steps to remedy it (by themselves and for themselves),,judging buy the miracles already achieved I,m sue and i fervently hope they succeed… i can.t see even a glimmer of recognition from the Canadian oildsands producers or the US fracking industry of the damage they are causing…

            Chins does not have a monopoly on corruption…but they surely know how to tackle it…or haven,t you noticed????

            the preparatory work to stemming any Chinese expansion is well in hand ..just look to the fun and games with allies of the US in the South China sea….

            these games always start with the best possible motives and slowly and surely descend into belligerence…

            in the 19th and early 20th century, diplomacy dictated thet a buffer zone be maintained between competing empires ( as in Bosnia for example….

            current US(?) dogma seems to be to pick a target and “ïn your face”..

            the North and south Korea situation is an example of this and is always a possible flashpoint…

            I hoped we would be getting away from these games and would start practicing proper diplomacy….and I,ve not gien up hope,yet….

            think,iggy…

          • Igor Z

            You brought up China. It was not me who brought up Canada or US.

            If you want to compare ecological state between China and North America… then you’re in for a losing debate.

            China’s anti corruption is a joke. Their system breeds corruption faster then they can battle it. How many people will they execute in their corruption which hunt. It’s an utter catastrophe. I guess it’s one way to solve the over population problem. A more realistic one would be to annex parts of Russia. I’m leaning towards the ladder being a viable option. Then how will Russia feel about China expansion?

          • George Evans

            the difference is that the Chinese do something about their problems…the US continues to pollute..as in fracking and Alaska drilling and unsafe oil trains and ill maintained pipelines…

            Canada,s speciality is the oilsands…surely the most unsoud ecological practice devized by man…

            you hit it when you said execution of criminals…none of the banksters have been brought to justice in the US…

            fix the mote in your own eye,iggy….

          • Brent

            “half of the legitimate President,s family have been murdered..along with countless politicians who do not accept the Right Front,s outrageous conduct”..

            you must be referring to Yanukovych’s younger son, Victor Jr. He drown while driving on Lake Baikal with 5 other Russians, WHO ALL MANAGED TO SURVIVE….and you’re stupid enough to blame that on Ukraine? It’s kind of interesting how he drowned on a Saturday, and they were able to arrange a funeral for him in Crimea within two days….and fly his body there to be buried in time! What amazing Russian efficiency!!!

            And who exactly is the “Right Front”?????

            Thanks for once again showing how stupid and mindless you really are….you’re a credit to the sheeple as you represent their capabilities….

          • George Evans

            he was one among many,bent….

            keep on venting,bent…

      • Murf

        That was a whole lot of talking with out saying much George.
        Just sayn’

        • George Evans

          still plagiarising,smurf…no real opinion though…just hor air….

          • Murf

            Yeah plagiarizing. .
            See the difference?
            Just sayn’.

      • nikkkom

        Kremlin gave thrice as much, $15bn, to the other side.

        • George Evans

          they loaned it,nuke

          just like the IMF loans..but much better terms…

          Ukraine is going the way of Greece,mate

          • nikkkom

            Putin also “loaned” $32bn to Cuba, which was never paid back. 8)

          • George Evans

            where do you get this rubbish,nuke???

          • Brent

            Here you go, doofus. Putin actually didn’t give a loan, but he wrote off $32 billion in Cuban debt to Russia…..all while Cuba was secretly negotiating behind his back about normalizing relations with the U.S.!!!! Too funny! I’ll bet you even Kennedy is laughing about this one…..

            http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/10/russia-writes-off-cuban-debt

          • George Evans

            haven,t seen the US or their stooges write anything off..have you…

            they can,t afford it now the card is maxed out and the “bubbles”they create are evaporating…

          • Brent

            I think Russia is going ‘the way of Greece’ more than Ukraine….Western businesses are no longer investing in Russia but are still investing in Ukraine. The Russian ‘rubble’ is worth one third of Ukraine’s hryvnia compared to the U.S. dollar you despise…..happy trolling little lying sheeple!!!

          • George Evans

            you seem to have lost touch with reality,bent…

            which planet are you on…or what are you smoking.??..

        • George Evans

          you have been irradiated with too much,Hollywood,bent…and it seems incurable….

          keep practicing your pictures though… they lighten the drudge of wading through your bs…

      • Brent

        Putin gave Yanukovych a $15 billion bribe NOT to sign the EU agreement. Read this story about where the snipers on Maidan came from….

        There you go, your own prophecy was already fulfilled and you’re too dumb and too blind to even see it….

        http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/30/exclusive-photographs-expose-russian-trained-killers-in-kiev.html

      • Mumra

        A Russian Nuland. Is that a brand of car like that piece of garbage Lada that Vlad is always touting?

        • George Evans

          nah…it,s a piece of US garbage,mummer…

          • Mumra

            Dear George Evans boss in the new, improved Russian Empire,

            I hate to tell you, but you troll George is doing a terrible job. I realize you don’t have a very deep talent pool to choose from, but this guy is really bottom of the barrel. His English is terrible, his punctuation is laughable, but most importantly, he is an embarrassment to Tsar Vlad IV.

            Worse than that, I find nothing compelling enough with this clown to want to continue writing to him. I know money is tight and this guy probably works cheap, but he’s an embarrassment. I also realize he can’t make his user profile secret, that’s the only way you can see how many comments he makes, but damn, have you read the inane drivel he writes? Like I said, a total embarrassment.

            Worse than that, I find his lack of communicative skills boring. He says the same five or six things over and over. I’m in the process of removing his comments from my stream. I suggest you remove him from your stream. You can kill him if you wish, I don’t think anyone will complain.

            So tell George goodbye for me.

          • George Evans

            giving up already,mummer…

            but don,t hold back…spit it out…

            I,ll miss you,mummer..like a hole in the head….

  • Murf

    If this was about “Donbas Rebels” there might be some Merritt to discussions and
    It was always about Control.
    Putin’s control over Ukraine.
    Nothing more, nothing less.

    • George Evans

      maybe about the current Kiev junta and their lack of control of the Donbas and Crimea…those people have sacked the Kiev usurpers…

      the Kosovars did the same to Serbia thanks to Clinton,s intervention…

      since the kosovars they had nowhere to go ,they just created another failed state….

      but the Donbas and Crimea came home….

      • Igor Z

        When will you be going home to Russia?

        • CanRus

          George would never want to live in a place like Russia, especially now that’s it’s rapidly going downhill. He’d much rather admire Putin from afar, singing praises to him from the comfort and security of a civilized country. If you feel charitable today, give the poor thing an upvote. It’s terribly lonely and just wants a bit of attention.

          • Igor Z

            It’s actually not all that common for me to get an impression that a particular commenter is a paid troll. It does happen of course but not all that often. I must say though, the Kremlin is very strong with this one. I can smell the foul troll smell through the internet.

          • CanRus

            I agree. The paid Kremtrolls are actually not that common, and generally easy to spot. More common are the rabid West-haters – who hypocritically almost always live in a Western country and would never want to live in Russia, or have ever been there – but cheer for Putin simply because he hates the West too. ‘George’ most definitely is a troll, but I’m convinced it’s a common Internet troll. Spouts nonsense and praise for Putin on Ukrainian sites purely for attention.

          • George Evans

            hate to be personal…but that is candy,iggy….. or was it you???

          • George Evans

            just because you have ben exposed for the trollop you are,bent…

            I,ve advised you before to lighten up on the abuse…you are the one being shown up….

          • mike

            Georgy it appears you are a number 1 peckerwood

          • George Evans

            better get moving,milky…your black Angus bs is not selling too well….

          • mike

            That’s all you can muster up Georgy Boy – your weak for a Russian troll oh my god really Peckerwood

          • George Evans

            candy and iggy…a match made in heaven???

            how come you trollops always hunt in pairs,candy….

          • CanRus

            I believe this is the 1st exchange I’ve ever had with Igor. What’s the matter Georgy?… You wanna friend too and nobody wanna play with you? Come here… I’ll give you a big hug and you’ll feel a bit better. Stop crying now…

          • George Evans

            lost again,candy..you should be used to it by now….

          • Brent

            says the troll with 865 comments and 142 votes….how many of those were your own upvotes???

          • George Evans

            I got some from candy,bent….one of your trolling juveniles you hang with….

          • Mumra

            You have to realize that George gets paid by the comment. He needs to write them fast and nasty if he wants to get paid.

            The sad part is that while Tsar Vlad is paying this clown big money (for Russia at least) the streets of Russia are filled with starving babushka’s begging for kopeks.

            It’s a sad fact that not only does human offal like George have to sell their souls to raise their standard of living, they also have to sell their grandmothers down the river.

          • George Evans

            I don,t talk about your granny,smurf….

            abusive,ill educated trollop….

          • Mumra

            You’re still mad because I mentioned that you are getting paid as a member of Putin’s troll army while old women are starving in Russia? Perhaps your own mother and grandmother?

            How many times have you walked past one, bent over, desperate, calling out to you?

            Good – I want you to think about your Babushka every time you walk past one of those begging old women. Think about how YOU are helping to put them on the street to beg for incredibly worthless Kopeks.

            You’re probably some kid who is real happy to make a lot of money to insult random people on the these sites, yet you have no idea what your own actions are doing to your country.

            Old, starving women begging in the shadows of the Kremlin itself, that is what Tsar Vlad has brought upon your country, AND YOU ARE HELPING HIM WITH EVERY IDIOT COMMENT YOU MAKE.

            I’m 65 years old and my “granny” has been dead for over 30 years. Until her last breath she hated Russia for what it did to the country of her birth.

            You should be hating Putin with every fiber of your body for what he is doing to your country, but let’s face it, the money is too good for you to stop.

            And you still haven’t figured out what a trollop is.

          • George Evans

            just because you are an ill educated,abusive ignoramus..I don,t talk of your Granny…or your mother….

            maybe you are the granny????

            seriously, President Putin has no Monica in the shadows…and cannot be blamed for creating more failed states than Genghis Khan (like GeorgeW)…he is a great peace loving man who provides a beacon oh hope for mankind in these troubled times…

            we now wait while Obama exits stage left…and we start another adventure…and ,in the words of the song änother day older and deeper in debt”…

          • Mumra

            FIrst you whine like a little beotch about being mocked, then you proceed to mock.

            Grow a pair you pathetic little piece of human offal. You’re a Russian Troll, the least you can do is try to man up.

          • George Evans

            yes,,, you sound like a granny…but without the wisdom…

            yes…an ill educated ,abusive trollop…that sums you up…..

          • George Evans

            keep up the abuse,mummer…it shows what you are….

          • Mumra

            Of course President Putin has no Monica in the shadows. That little cross eyed, midget fruit does have plenty of Ivans, Sergeis, Mikhails, and at least one George.

          • George Evans

            I liked Monica,mummer….

            Clinton was OK until he destroyed Somalia and created Kosovo..
            pity about the Chinese Embassy b$lls up…

            it sure has been downhill since though…

            and leave my granny out of it,you rude boy….

          • George Evans

            keep abusing mummer…the other trollops,candy and jasmin and pulling love it….

          • Mumra

            I just realized that you tried to mock President Clinton yet you probably have no idea that not only has Tsar Vlad dumped his wife of 30 years a little while ago and he has a new kid from that gymnast that he knocked up. The press in your country doesn’t tell you ANYTHING.

            I guess impregnating that woman (probably with a turkey baster) was a nice change of pace from the young boys that he really favors. Oh wait, you’re a young boy, aren’t you George.

          • George Evans

            you are slow on theuptake…

            otherwise you would realize just how stupid you sound….

          • Mumra

            Actually, he does have one failed state under his belt, it’s called Russia.

          • George Evans

            and why is Russia back where it belongs…shaping the world…rather than destroying it???

            Great man,President Putin…Russia is lucky and thankful…

            “cometh the hour,cometh the man”

            sorry you wouldn,t understand that,mummer….

          • CanRus

            Hahahaha! Now ‘George’ is bragging because I gave it 2 upvotes out of pity, so it would stop whining that nobody loves it! Hahahaha! Priceless! 1st time I ever see a troll bragging about being made a fool of. Oh my… George is even more desperate for scraps of attention than I thought.

          • George Evans

            jeez, I thought I was persuading you,too…twice….

          • Mumra

            I think you should celebrate those two upvotes and send your starving Babushka a 50 kopek coin. I’m sure she could use the 2/3rds of a penny to buy a slimy, rotted beet to spice up her dinner, or does she just pick them out of the garbage from the restaurant where your oligarchs eat?

          • George Evans

            I,ll treasure them…a sign of conversion of candy the trollop…a bit like on the road to Damascus….

            when are you going to show your face,mummer…

          • Mumra

            How pathetic, you accept the two upvotes yet don’t ssay a word about the 50 kopek for your babushka.

            When my Babushka died 30 years ago, she died with her entire family around her, in a nice, clean hospice where the people who worked there cared as much for her as we did.

            Yours will die in poverty maybe in her tenement, maybe out in the street. I imagine a plain pine box in a paupers grave . . . if she’s lucky.

            I doubt if you will pay a ruble to help. Your just a black, soulless heart.

          • George Evans

            keep abusing, mummer… you shame yourself….

          • Mumra

            Hey, can someone here tell me what the he!! this clown means when he says ” . . . a sign of conversion of candy the trollop?”

            His troll boss obviously needs to smack his head around a little. Preferably with some good, thick rebar.

          • George Evans

            don,t hang back.mummer
            let it all hang out….

            no good keeping it inside…

          • Mumra

            Ask “George” about his widowed, starving babushka. I did and boy did it strike a raw nerve. I’m assuming that his grandfather died of alcohol poisoning at around 50.

            George can sure dish it out, but it’s actually pretty easy to get him upset. I fear that his “bosses” at the troll factory will soon find out how bad he is at this job and soon he will be out next to his grandmother, begging for worthless kopeks – HEY GEORGE, how much is a 50 kopek coin worth now? Something like 2/3 of a penny? How are the starving babushkas of Russia going to survive?

      • Murf

        The they would not have needed massive amounts of reinforcement from ” volunteers from Russia. If even 10 % of the people who fled to Russia had cared enough to fight the rebels would have had 70k under arms.
        Nor would they have needed Russian Federation Troops to save their bacon last year.
        No if wanted this to stop he could cut off ammunition supplies and the Rebels would be behaving them selves the next day.
        But Putin’ s control is not happening.
        His chances wane every day.
        Time is on Ukraine’s side.

        • George Evans

          have you learned nothing,smurf????

          • Murf

            You know nothing George Evans!
            That’s paraphrasing with just a pinch of plagiaring.

          • George Evans

            that,s rubbish,smurf…

          • Murf

            George when you check off each of the “Official List of Approved Talking Points” that the Russian propaganda mill cranks out it is hard to take you serious.

          • George Evans

            start talking sense,smurf…you are degenerating….

          • Murf

            Take your own advice George of the Jungle I read that whole epistle of yours and it made as much sense as a mad bombers manifesto.
            Organizing your thoughts and try to not hit every talking point.

          • George Evans

            still degenerating,smurf….

            let,s have some more sense and less abuse….you could then start to improve….

          • Brent

            Kind of funny to watch when you get cornered with real facts that you whine about abuse and blame the others for ‘degenerating’….seen that same tactic many times from your fellow trolls and mindless sheeple….you bring nothing to the discussion, other than lies.

          • Murf

            If agreeing with you is your idea of sense; don’t hold your breath sport. I would have to be lobotomized first.

          • George Evans

            you sound sometimes as though you have already been done,smurf….

          • Murf

            It’s an all or nothing process scooter.
            What your experianceing indicates is your are missing your meds.
            You have to stay on top of that George boy. Just because you are feeling better doesn’t mean you can go off of them.
            Otherwise they take you back to that “special” place.

          • George Evans

            definitely getting weaker,smurf…

            they must have missed a bit,when they did you….

          • Murf

            Speaking of George

            I just sayn’ you were never particularly strong in the retort category.
            But here lately its gotten less amusing and more embarrassing.
            If you need to to take a brake.
            Climb a mountain or knock a few things off the ol’ bucket list and then back to me.
            I’m just trying to help.

          • George Evans

            they might have missed a lot,smurf…

            you should ask for your money back…if you can remember who “did”you….

          • Murf

            Lamo Geroge, very lame.
            Get some sleep guy you will feel better in the morning.

          • George Evans

            you don,t remember,eh. smurf…

            it doesn,t get any better,either…

          • Murf

            It doesn’t’ they any better with you George.

          • George Evans

            they didn,t tell you about the side effects when they did you,eh,smurf….

          • Murf

            George are you like five or something?
            You keep going on with the same line.
            It was mildly amusing the first time.
            Now, not so much.
            Try watching “Sponge Bob Square Pants” for some new material.
            That would be a real step up for you.

          • George Evans

            yes, you are mildly amusing too,smurf…but not as much as candy…he.s a barrel of laughs,that joker….

  • nikkkom

    I am very pro-Ukrainian, yet I have to disagree somewhat regarding merits of political discussions. I think it usually worth having.

    You don’t have to agree to anything or compromise anything. If your position is morally and logically watertight, you should not shy away from the discussion. Articulate your position. Show that the opponent is wrong.

    If you refuse to talk with people who you strongly disagree with, it may leave a feeling that you in fact isn’t so sure that truth is on your side.

    There are cases when it does not make sense to talk. Say, with people who are illogical, or if the playing field is heavily unfair (e.g. the host of the talks don’t let you talk, only they are talking).

    • George Evans

      no argument there,nuke….

      but you should also be strong enough to show your face…

      always suspicious these private profiles….