Izborsky Club calls for new Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact to re-divide Eastern Europe between Moscow and Berlin

Aleksandr Gaponenko titled his article proposing a new Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact in the "Geostrategy" section of the latest issue of the Izborsky Club's magazine with little subtlety: "Eastern Europe as a Battlefield between Russia and the Anglo-Saxons" (Image: izborsk-club.ru)

Aleksandr Gaponenko titled his article proposing a new Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact in the "Geostrategy" section of the latest issue of the Izborsky Club's magazine with little subtlety: "Eastern Europe as a Battlefield between Russia and the Anglo-Saxons" (Image: izborsk-club.ru) 

Analysis & Opinion, Politics, Russia

The Izborsky Club, a group of Russian nationalist intellectuals that has often been extremely influential in the Kremlin of Vladimir Putin, is now calling for an updated version of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, an accord that like the 1939 agreement, that would allow Berlin and Moscow to re-divide the countries of Eastern Europe between them.

As outlined by Aleksandr Gaponenko, the head of the Baltic section of the club, in an article in the latest issue of the club’s magazine, “a union of Russia and Germany” would allow each of these countries to recover territories they have lost over the last 75 years (izborsk-club.ru/magazine_files/2017_01.pdf, pp. 34-45; excerpted at ttolk.ru).

Such an alliance between Germany and Russia, he says, would allow the former to “recover” the Sudetenland, Silesia, East Prussia, Poland, Hungary and Romania as well as portions of Ukraine. Berlin would also get part of Lithuania, with Moscow “getting back” the rest of the Baltics, ‘Novorossiya,’ Transdniestria and establishing “a protectorate” over Belarus.

The Izborsky Club activist begins by saying that the approaching disintegration of Ukraine will force Poland to absorb portions of that country in the West and Russia to take a large slice of it in the south and east, thereby reducing Ukraine to a rump state without access to the sea. Romania and Hungary may also take parts of Ukraine, he says.

But “the chief role in the development of events in Eastern Europe will not be played by Poland but by Germany,” Gaponenko says. Many in Germany are again looking east and planning for German expansion. To date, the Merkel government has “effectively blocked” such proposals, but it won’t be able to hold off these “revanchist attitudes” forever.

Germany’s role also has been restricted up to now because of its status as the loser in World War II and the role of the victors, the US, the UK and Russia. But both the US and the UK are losing influence in Eastern Europe, and that means that Germany and Russia need to come to an understanding and make a deal, the Izborsky Club leader says.

That is all the more so, Gaponenko continues, because Russia’s influence is increasing and “it is completely possible that Russia will not oppose demands by Berlin to Warsaw for the return of Pomerania, Silesia and the Polish portion of Eastern Prussia. In exchange,” Berlin and Russia would give a green light to Polish claims against Ukraine.

“It is [also] not excluded,” he says, that “Berlin and Warsaw will agree among themselves about the partition of Lithuania: Poland will get Vilno district back, and Germany will recover the Memel district.” In that event, rump Lithuania will have no choice but to turn to Moscow.

In exchange for Russian agreement to changes in Germany’s eastern borders, Gaponenko argues, “Russia could get the right to join to itself Ukrainian and Moldovan territories populated by ethnic Russians – ‘Novorossiya’ and Transdniestria.” In that event, he says, rump Ukraine or as he calls it “Malorossiya” would adopt pro-Moscow policies.

Moldova would face the choice of becoming part of Romania or become a pro-Russian country. And Estonia and Latvia, while they might remain nominally independent, would be dominated jointly by Russia and Germany to force them to repay Germany for property taken and to end what he says is discrimination against ethnic Russians.

Such a re-division of Eastern Europe, Gaponenko argues, would have the additional benefit of freeing Germany from the influence of the United States and opening the way for Berlin to provide capital investment in Russia to help Moscow recover economically. All Maidans in Eastern Europe would thus be excluded forever.

This is clearly a fantasy of the extreme right in Germany and of nationalists in Russia, many of whom have expressed similar views in the past. But what is worrisome is that groups close to the Kremlin feel completely free to air such views in the current climate, a feeling that promises no good even if it doesn’t lead to a new Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and war.


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Edited by: A. N.

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  • Brent

    What a bunch of buffoons!!! They should be more concerned with how much of Siberia China is going to take back.

    Three words for these Mongol Russo-Nazzis

    GO F*CK YOURSELF

  • zorbatheturk

    Farkov with the bullshitsky.

  • Robert

    Holy Moly! These whack-jobs are like the former planet Pluto – they are out there …. WAY out there! When are such people gonna die off? … I guess they have some small value in comic relief(?).

  • laker48

    Well, I’d rather stick with Mr. George Friedman’s analysis and forecast outlined in his book “The Next 100 Years”. http://www.mysearch.org.uk/website1/pdf/715.2.pdf
    RuSSia is doomed demographically.

    • Andrew Chmile

      Go cheat more widows with kids you ***LYING*** anti-Ukrainian polak POS!!!

      ———– COPY
      “laker48” is a **LYING** COWARDLY anti-Ukrainian, polak CHAUVINIST who posting as “max Canada” called for the “partition of Ukraine along historical lines per the Treaty of Versailles.” — polak SCUMBAG indeed.

      Whether as “laker48” or “max Canada” his posting profile is hidden. His above EASILY PROVEN LYING will be addressed. With HONEST & accurate “distaste”.

      But FIRST — who is this LOUDLY “LYING*, COWARDLY, anti-Ukrainian, polak?

      FB: https://www.facebook.com/zygmunt.janiewicz
      Polak’s nasty photo below.

      What *LYING* polak RACIST sounds like {EVIL!}:
      http://tinyurl.com/n6jclfv

      *LYING* polak’s translations & whereabouts biz:
      https://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/member66708.htm
      ——————
      B.C. broker fined $60,000 after single-mom loses $64,000
      A British Columbia broker has been fined $60,000 after his client, a single-mother with two children, lost $64,000 in 11 months of aggressive trading.
      Zygmunt Janiewicz, who worked for Global Securities Corp. in Kelowna, B.C., has been barred from the industry for six months and ordered to repay his commissions.
      http://tinyurl.com/oymaaot

      Hmm… was the polak “churning” this widow woman’s (?) account most GREEDILY? Like a SCUMBAG?
      ——————-

      Let’s see:

      IN THE MATTER OF THE INVESTMENT DEALER
      S ASSOCIATION OF CANADA (ENFORCEMENT DIVISION)
      AND
      ZYGMUNT JANIEWICZ

      [PDF] Zygmunt Janiewicz Reasons for Decision
      http://tinyurl.com/k85aqce

      Hmm …like I figured, as judging by his *LYING* posting habits & deceitful, “holy polak victimhood BS act”. WHAT A POLAK @SSHOLE! That EVIL polak POS!

      He cheated that poor widow woman with the 2 little kids, that naively TRUSTED that lying, polak SCUMBAG!

      Open the link above & read the for yourself!

      *LYING* — CONNIVING — CHEATING, GRASPING, polak [email protected] put the simple “housewife & mother” into HIGH RISK *PUT* OPTIONS & DIDN’T BOTHER TO EXPLAIN OR TELL HER! — Knowing full well she didn’t know much.

      The *LYNG* polak *COWARD* & Ukraine hater, didn’t even have the CHARACTER to appear at the hearing and have the DECENCY to apologize to the woman and her kids…. just took the “default judgement” — polish SCUMBAG!!!

      IDA imposes $50,000 fine and six month suspension
      on Zygmunt Janiewicz

      http://tinyurl.com/kjyqtez

      Hmm photo later — good thing I saved a copy earlier! — He’s removed any close photos of his EVIL, *LYING*

      WIDOW WOMAN SWINDLING polak face!

    • Dagwood Bumstead

      Oliver Bullough pretty much makes the same point in his book “The Last Man in Russia: The Struggle to save a Dying Nation”.

  • Dirk Smith

    LOL. Yet another reason for deeper sanctions against this third-world kleptocracy.

  • Murf

    Why should Germany limit their growth by agreeing to this?
    Germany is an economic powerhouse and the most important country in the EU.
    They head the second largest economy in the world and are allied to the first.
    What do they need Moscow for?
    The Kremlin needs this kind of deal because they can not compete with the West. It is of no benifit to the West.
    As for Ukraine’s supposed disintegration, the Ukraine economy grew more in the first 3months of this year than Russia’s has grown in the last three years combind.

    • veth

      //www.unian.info/economics/1918624-crimea-sees-unprecedented-water-crisis-media.html

      • Murf

        Only three years in to the water cut off and the water stable has dropped to 270 meters.
        What the hel were they thinking?
        The next question is what about the situation do they think is going to change any time soon? At this rate the region will become a dust bowl and the soil will erode away.
        Now we are seeing the down side of that famous Russian stubbornness. Ukraine has them by their man parts the officials still have to tow the party line. They won’t admit anything unit a catastrophe happens just like Aral Lake.

        • Oknemfrod

          They weren’t thinking of anything other than crude land-grabbing and yelling “Krym nash!” to whip the sheeple into the asinine patriotic frenzy and perhaps, to some extent, of the naval base. Not of water and power supply, not of the possibility of the ensuing agricultural disaster, and not even of the necessity to support the local populace by fleecing that on the mainland.

          There is a characteristic Russian saying “А там хоть трава не расти”. It means, approximately, “one doesn’t care what happens after that”. Literally, it means “And then let even grass not grow”. (The adage has agricultural roots: If a field is mercilessly exploited season after season and don’t get a rest, even grass won’t grow there, let alone crops.) Well, I guess in this case they’re getting what they wish for, quite literally.

          • Murf

            They thought Putin would spank the Ukrainians back in to line and Europe would accept the outcome.
            That didn’t work out so well did it?
            They say Putin is a genius but the second Streklov’s boots touched down on Crimean soil he has been on a one way ride to hel. The thing is at every opportunity to improve the situation he keeps making bad decisions.

          • Oknemfrod

            His seemingly asinine stubbornness stems from the code his criminal circle abides by. It forbids the capo from admitting he may have made a wrong decision. So, every next one must be perceived by his coterie as not undoing those preceding it.

            The only way to hold this line is to either double down on a bad decision or at best invent explanations for having backed off (as in the case with Turkey), plausible enough to be accepted by his criminal circle and the sheeple. For instance, that’s why he’d never voluntarily give up Crimea – he’s immediately lose his clout in the eyes of the asinine sheeple paying for it from their own pockets.

            This is the pattern invariably seen throughout his tenure – a slippery slope that will eventually do him in. But by the same token, it will do in the whole country idem. As far as I’m concerned, “скатертью дорога”, as the Russians say.

          • Murf

            The next guy will not be inheriting Putin’s relatively strong position. The economy is a mess, and there is little chance oil will climb above 60 DPB.
            Plus I doubt the oligarchs will put up with another Vlad the Shirtless.
            They have made a lot of money off him but he has grown “To big for his Britches”.
            They will want some one they can control. They will also will need financial help. and that help will come at a price.

          • laker48

            The Dwarf is already cornered and president Trump will likely let him go into a tailspin, run Dwarfstan into the ground, crash and burn. The US or led by it NATO doesn’t need to use any military force directly in order to destroy RuSSia. Let’s keep in mind that after the Redzikowo, Poland, anti-ICBM base is operational at the end of 2018, the US will have to deploy from three to five US Air Force wings in Poland and the Baltic States, at least one of them being a wing of F-35 Lightning IIs. The US will also have to build around it a multilayer defence system against medium and short range rocket attacks as well as an anti-aircraft defence. The Dwarf won’t be able to afford putting up any real countermeasures, even if he bankrupts his RoSSiya. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgikyOuGC1M&ab_channel=JohnConnor

          • Andrew Chmile

            AMAZING!

    • laker48

      It’s actually China that is the second largest economy in the world. Japan is third and Germany fourth. Germany is an industrial power but a financial dwarf. China is already buying Germany’s and the world’s largest bank, Deutsche Bank. Over 90% of the world’s financial power is wielded along the City-Wall Street axis. Germany is also in a turmoil caused by its indiscriminate acceptance of Muslim migrants.

      RuSSia will be locked in by NATO and its eastern flank between the Baltic States and the Black Sea. Brent M. Williams, Public Affairs Officer for the Mission Command Element for the Atlantic Resolve mission, said that the command centre would be relocated from Baumholder in Germany to Poznań in western Poland. It’s actually been moved and the US military bases will follow. Romania is also rapidly increasing its military might, while the military industrial sector of Ukraine widely cooperates with its Polish and Turkish counterparts. The NATO centre of gravity is fast moving from Germany to Central and Eastern Europe.

      • Murf

        All true. There is even talk it the Army expands in size under Trump a second armored Brigade will be add to Europe.
        After that you might as well round it out to a full division. Or as I say “1st Armored Division back to Europe!”
        All of which make me wonder why the idiots in the article seem to think US influence in Eastern Europe is waning? Or that the US would stand by and let Germany and Russia partition Poland again.
        But I guess they never let reality get in the way of their far fetched Imperial dreams.

        • laker48

          Trump is simply putting the money where his mouth is. Poland spends over 2% of its GDP on its defence and will increase this share to 3% by the end of 2018. The US Army is Germany’s third largest employer, hence moving US military bases from Germany to Poland will cost Germany billions of dollars contributed to it GDP by US taxpayers, and the international airport in Frankfurt will lose close to half of its traffic due to shifting of most US Army and its family members’ traffic to Polish airports. Poland is shifting from RuSSia towards buying LNG and crude from the US, so Uncle Sam will defend its potentially big export market (Poland’s imports of oil and gas from RuSSia are valued between $20 and $25 billion per year).

          Trump humiliated chancellor Merkel in Washington for a reason. Poland is also the only east of the UK and France NATO member state that has the first strike weapons against the fascist RuSSian Federation, as it has already received over 20 out of 120 ordered AGM-158B JASSM-ER with up to 1000 km strike range missiles fired from its F-16 fighter jets on top of already in its arsenal 40 AGM-158A JASSMs with the strike range of 380 km. There’s no defence against these maneuvering missiles carrying 500 kg warheads. Poland is the only country outside the US that has AGM-158B JASSM-ER missiles. The RuSSians have gone ballistic about it. There are also talks being held about the expansion of the US/NATO nuclear sharing programme to Poland and transfers of over 20 B-61 Mod 10 thermonuclear tactical bombs from Germany to Poland. All Polish F-16s were made compatible with them some four of five years ago.

          • slavko

            Some quick research shows 2 other countries in addition to US and Poland, Australia and even more amusing to me is that Finland a close neighbor of Russia, is likewise in possession of the same missiles.

          • laker48

            You’re wrong. Australia and Finland have only AGM-158A JASSM missiles with the range of 380 km, while Poland is the only one, save the US, that has already purchased 120 AGM-158B JASSM-ER missiles with the range of 1000 km, and this purchase has triggered a bout of barking, growling and howling from the Kremlin. The original order was 80 missiles and was increased to 120 with full delivery by 2020, but the first 20 plus arrived last January, so Poland officially has in stock 40 AGM-158A JASSM and 20 plus AGM-158B JASSM-ER missiles. The upgrading of all 48 F-16s owned by Poland to the ERs has just been finished.

          • slavko

            It seems that I missed some letters then of the missile type. However, this is interesting. How did you get this information and from where ?

          • laker48

            Even the katsaps reported that. The order was later increased by 50, not 40 and the first 20 plus arrived in Poland last January. https://www.rt.com/news/371605-us-poland-missiles-deal/

          • Andrew Chmile

            “laker48” is a **LYING** COWARDLY anti-Ukrainian, polak CHAUVINIST who posting as “max Canada” called for the “partition of Ukraine along historical lines per the Treaty of Versailles.” — polak SCUMBAG indeed.

            Whether as “laker48” or “max Canada” his posting profile is hidden. His above EASILY PROVEN LYING will be addressed. With HONEST & accurate “distaste”.

            But FIRST — who is this LOUDLY “LYING*, COWARDLY, anti-Ukrainian, polak?

            FB: https://www.facebook.com/zygmunt.janiewicz
            Polak’s nasty photo below.

            What *LYING* polak RACIST sounds like {EVIL!}:
            http://tinyurl.com/n6jclfv

            *LYING* polak’s translations & whereabouts biz:
            https://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/member66708.htm
            ——————
            B.C. broker fined $60,000 after single-mom loses $64,000
            A British Columbia broker has been fined $60,000 after his client, a single-mother with two children, lost $64,000 in 11 months of aggressive trading.
            Zygmunt Janiewicz, who worked for Global Securities Corp. in Kelowna, B.C., has been barred from the industry for six months and ordered to repay his commissions.
            http://tinyurl.com/oymaaot

            Hmm… was the polak “churning” this widow woman’s (?) account most GREEDILY? Like a SCUMBAG?
            ——————-

            Let’s see:

            IN THE MATTER OF THE INVESTMENT DEALER
            S ASSOCIATION OF CANADA (ENFORCEMENT DIVISION)
            AND
            ZYGMUNT JANIEWICZ

            [PDF] Zygmunt Janiewicz Reasons for Decision
            http://tinyurl.com/k85aqce

            Hmm …like I figured, as judging by his *LYING* posting habits & deceitful, “holy polak victimhood BS act”. WHAT A POLAK @SSHOLE! That EVIL polak POS!

            He cheated that poor widow woman with the 2 little kids, that naively TRUSTED that lying, polak SCUMBAG!

            Open the link above & read the for yourself!

            *LYING* — CONNIVING — CHEATING, GRASPING, polak [email protected] put the simple “housewife & mother” into HIGH RISK *PUT* OPTIONS & DIDN’T BOTHER TO EXPLAIN OR TELL HER! — Knowing full well she didn’t know much.

            The *LYNG* polak *COWARD* & Ukraine hater, didn’t even have the CHARACTER to appear at the hearing and have the DECENCY to apologize to the woman and her kids…. just took the “default judgement” — polish SCUMBAG!!!

            IDA imposes $50,000 fine and six month suspension
            on Zygmunt Janiewicz

            http://tinyurl.com/kjyqtez

            Hmm photo later — good thing I saved a copy earlier! — He’s removed any close photos of his EVIL, *LYING*

            WIDOW WOMAN SWINDLING polak face!

          • laker48

            Here’s another, more detailed update, but not covering the most recent events, as the Polish-American relations have significantly improved since Donald Trump was elected President. https://theaviationist.com/tag/agm-158-jassm/

            There’s a $2.7 billion deal between the Polish Arms Group (PGZ) and Raytheon to create a 50/50 joint venture and manufacture Patriot systems in Poland with an option of exporting them to all central and eastern European NATO member states. There’s always someone from the Polish government in the US negotiating different, mostly military deals and high-ranked US Congress and government officials often visit Poland that under the new government turns its back on Germany and France, and prefers to strike industrial defence deals with the UK, the US, Sweden and Israel. Even German Leopard tanks owned by Poland have been totally customised to the Polish army standards and equipped with Polish WB Electronics battlefield management systems that are the world’s leaders in this field. http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/data_management/wb-electronics/

            Poland is aso closely cooperating with Ukraine and its three military satellites will be launched into space next year with Ukrainian rockets because the AGM-158s can be controlled from the launching aircraft only to the distance of up to 80 km. A precise delivery of the warhead to the target requires satellite control and now Poland has to buy data sharing from its NATO allies who own such satellites.

          • Andrew Chmile

            LYING polak SCUMBAG!!!

            Go cheat ANOTHER widow with kids!!!!

          • Andrew Chmile

            This is ***LYING*** SCUMBAG polak “laker48”:

            COPY:
            “laker48” is a **LYING** COWARDLY anti-Ukrainian, polak CHAUVINIST who posting as “max Canada” called for the “partition of Ukraine along historical lines per the Treaty of Versailles.” — polak SCUMBAG indeed.

            Whether as “laker48” or “max Canada” his posting profile is hidden. His above EASILY PROVEN LYING will be addressed. With HONEST & accurate “distaste”.

            But FIRST — who is this LOUDLY “LYING*, COWARDLY, anti-Ukrainian, polak?

            FB: https://www.facebook.com/zygmunt.janiewicz
            Polak’s nasty photo below.

            What *LYING* polak RACIST sounds like {EVIL!}:
            http://tinyurl.com/n6jclfv

            *LYING* polak’s translations & whereabouts biz:
            https://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/member66708.htm
            ——————
            B.C. broker fined $60,000 after single-mom loses $64,000
            A British Columbia broker has been fined $60,000 after his client, a single-mother with two children, lost $64,000 in 11 months of aggressive trading.
            Zygmunt Janiewicz, who worked for Global Securities Corp. in Kelowna, B.C., has been barred from the industry for six months and ordered to repay his commissions.
            http://tinyurl.com/oymaaot

            Hmm… was the polak “churning” this widow woman’s (?) account most GREEDILY? Like a SCUMBAG?
            ——————-

            Let’s see:

            IN THE MATTER OF THE INVESTMENT DEALER
            S ASSOCIATION OF CANADA (ENFORCEMENT DIVISION)
            AND
            ZYGMUNT JANIEWICZ

            [PDF] Zygmunt Janiewicz Reasons for Decision
            http://tinyurl.com/k85aqce

            Hmm …like I figured, as judging by his *LYING* posting habits & deceitful, “holy polak victimhood BS act”. WHAT A POLAK @SSHOLE! That EVIL polak POS!

            He cheated that poor widow woman with the 2 little kids, that naively TRUSTED that lying, polak SCUMBAG!

            Open the link above & read the for yourself!

            *LYING* — CONNIVING — CHEATING, GRASPING, polak [email protected] put the simple “housewife & mother” into HIGH RISK *PUT* OPTIONS & DIDN’T BOTHER TO EXPLAIN OR TELL HER! — Knowing full well she didn’t know much.

            The *LYNG* polak *COWARD* & Ukraine hater, didn’t even have the CHARACTER to appear at the hearing and have the DECENCY to apologize to the woman and her kids…. just took the “default judgement” — polish SCUMBAG!!!

            IDA imposes $50,000 fine and six month suspension
            on Zygmunt Janiewicz

            http://tinyurl.com/kjyqtez

            Hmm photo later — good thing I saved a copy earlier! — He’s removed any close photos of his EVIL, *LYING*

            WIDOW WOMAN SWINDLING polak face!

          • Murf

            Yep Poland has learned an important lesson. Purchasing Power = Political Power.
            That or as we say here in the States. “The customer is always right.”

          • Andrew Chmile

            you are a TOTAL anti-Ukrainian LIAR as always you WIDOW SWINDLING POS of polak sh*t!!!

      • Andrew Chmile

        polaks ALWAYS ***BETRAY*** & LIE!!! — scumbag people!

    • Turtler

      “Why should Germany limit their growth by agreeing to this?”

      Interestingly enough, that’s also what did in the previous Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. After Hitler hit a brick wall in the Channel and another in the Western Desert, failed to get the Soviets into the Axis outright, and noticed Soviet military modernization he figured it was best to strike while the iron was hot.

      This was probably inevitable sooner or later given Hitler’s Malthusian bent in a way that this hypothetical sack of schite isn’t (since the modern West is not a band of cannibals), but it is just further.

      Power starts at home. While I can say an awful lot about the tyrants of old Muscovy from Ivan Moneybags to Ivan the Great to Ivan the Terrible to Peter the Great, at least they invested in their country, its’ security, and the ability of farmers going to market to do so without getting completely screwed. Therefore it made some degree of sense to bend the knee and accept the yoke of an overbearing, dictatorial government.

      Today’s Kremlin isn’t holding up even the minimal standards of that bargain. Which is why alcoholism is killing it off.

  • veth

    Lets divide Russia: Siberia is for China, Ural stays Ural, its a garbage pit, Finland gets Karelia, Ukraine returning of Crimea and Donbass, plus Rostov oblast. The rest will implode.

    • slavko

      The Kuban too. Which is the Krasnodar region. That was always Ukrainian before the Kremlin took it.

      • Andrew Chmile

        Kursk & Belhorod as well… Zelemi Klin in Siberia.

        • slavko

          Leave Siberia to the Siberians.

    • Dagwood Bumstead

      And Dai-Nippon will get the Kuriles and Sakhalin back, Germany Königsberg. What have those Izborsky Club loons been smoking? Dwarfstan is in no position to demand anything. And even if Germany were to agree to these utterly unrealistic suggestions (which is highly unlikely), what makes them think that the Poles, Baltics, Czechs and the Ukrainians would? Would Belarus agree to giving up part of its territory? I doubt it.

  • Mykola Banderachuk

    this group is a club and everyone knows what they do in russian clubs-drink alot of vodka, go into the banya and then drink even more vodka. then over vodka they start to think if you want to call it that. ergo we have this stupid idea. will never happen