Novaya Gazeta identifies Russian colonel involved in shooting down MH17

Sergey Dubinsky. Photo: bellingcat.com

Sergey Dubinsky. Photo: bellingcat.com 

Analysis & Opinion

Pavel Kanygin, a special correspondent at the Russian outlet Novaya Gazeta, has presented what he claims is exclusive proof that “Khmuryi,” the nome de guerre of the Russian military figure suspected to be implicated in the downing of MH17, the passenger airliner that was shot with a Buk missile above Donbas, is Russian Colonel Sergey Dubinsky. This was confirmed by Dubinsky’s former comrade-in-arms Tiunov. Additionally, an expert comparison of “Khmuryi’s” voice from the SBU wiretaps and a recording of a conversation with Dubinsky done by the Institute of Neuroscience and Physiology at the University of Gothenburg concluded it was likely that the two recordings feature the voice of the same person.

In the fall of 2016, the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) tasked to investigate the catastrophe which killed all 298 people on board presented their conclusions, according to which the Malaysian Boeing was downed by a rocket from a Buk missile launcher which fired from the town of Snizhne in Donbas, at that moment under the control of the Russian hybrid forces of the “Donetsk People’s Republic” (“DNR”). Although JIT did not point fingers, open source research by Bellingcat shows that the Buk was operated by the Russian 53d brigade which brought it from Kursk.

Read also: One year later, what do we know about the MH17 tragedy | Infographic 

However, the search for those on top who gave the command is still ongoing. The day after flight MH17 was downed above eastern Ukraine on 17 July 2014, Ukraine’s Security Service (SBU) released a wiretapped conversation between leaders of the Russian-backed militants and the bosses in Russia. In them, a certain “Khmuryi” was heard discussing how a Buk-M which released the missile shooting the Boeing airplane down was in the possession of the Russian-backed militants of the “Donetsk People’s Republic” (read transcript here). The JIT investigation, which also made use of this intercept, shows “Khmuryi” as the person responsible for transporting the Buk missile launcher from the Russian border on territory controlled by the Russian-backed militants. Official Moscow dismisses the JIT’s conclusions as “internet fakes.”

The SBU identified “Khmuryi” as Sergey Nikolayevich Petrovsky of the Russian Main Intelligence Directorate. However, investigators from Infornapalm and Bellingcat identified his real name as Sergey Dubinsky, a Russian war veteran who fought in the Soviet-Afghan war and later in Chechnya, and later served in the 22nd Spetsnaz Brigade, a unit connected to the GRU, Russia’s Main Intelligence Directorate.

In February 2017, Bellingcat wrote that Dubinsky was granted the higher rank of major general in the “Donetsk People’s Republic” in August 2014 and later relocated to the Russian Federation after being expelled from Donetsk for alleged financial crimes. The publication of Novaya Gazeta now seems to dispel all doubts that the identity of “Khmuryi” is indeed Sergey Dubinsky.

An abridged translation of Novaya Gazeta’s report, edited for clarity

The newspaper found a person who confirmed that the voice of “Khmuryi” on the SBU’s intercept indeed belongs to Russian colonel Sergey Dubinsky. It was Serhiy Tiunov, a Ukrainian citizen, leader of the Ukrainian city of Zaporizhzhia’s self-defense forces, and veteran of the Afghan war, who recognized his former comrade-in-arms. Tiunov told Novaya Gazeta that he was a friend of the former Head of the “Main Intelligence Directorate of the DNR” Sergey Dubinsky and discussed the aftermath of MH17 with him.

Serhiy Tiunov (standing) and Sergey Dubinsky (holding machine gun). Photo from Tiunov’s archive, via novayagazeta.ru

In the late 1980s, Tiunov and Dubinsky served in the reconnaissance company of the 181st regiment in Afghanistan. When the war in Donbas was only starting in the summer of 2014, Tiunov was able to release several dozens of Ukrainian soldiers from captivity in militant-controlled territory thanks to his acquaintance with Dubinsky. Now Tiunov fears for his life, saying that his former comrade is a key witness in the MH17 catastrophe and can name those who are responsible for the downing of the passenger airliner, thus carrying direct responsibility for the civilian deaths.

Novaya Gazeta spoke with Tiunov in the HQ of the self-defense forces of Zaporizhzhia, which is located on the premises of one of the schools. Tiunov was coordinating the transfer of a new generator to Zaporizhzhian volunteer soldiers protecting the coastal and frontline city of Mariupol from an assault of Russian hybrid forces. Before the war, Tiunov worked as a lawyer. During the spring of 2014, he organized the local pro-unity self-defense forces which fouled Putin’s “Novorossiya” plan to split up Ukraine. One time he together with friends prevented a column of pro-Russian activists from entering the city and yanked out the Russian flags sticking out of the windows of their cars.

Read more: Meet the people behind Novorossiya’s grassroots defeat

“Many of my Russian friends wrote: ‘fascist, punisher, junta supporter.’ I didn’t expect this, it was disappointing that my comrades were so infected by propaganda,” Tiunov tells. But Dubinsky, unlike his other Russian friends, didn’t repeat any propaganda slogans, despite opposing the Euromaidan revolution like most Russians. Tiunov and Dubinsky held discussions, each holding to his own truth.

Serhiy Tiunov. Photo: Shapshot from video by Novaya Gazeta

Serhiy Tiunov in his Zaporizhzhia office. Photo: Snapshot from video by Novaya Gazeta

Tiunov tells Dubinsky was a retired Russian officer, but the May 2014 raid of a group of Ukrainian volunteers on the village Velyka Novoselka close to Donetsk where Dubinsky lived, searching for “Novorossiya” supporters, was the last straw – he suddenly went to fight for the “DNR.”

The two men became friends only in 2010, at a new internet forum for veterans. Dubinsky invited his Ukrainian friends to visit him in the village Velyka Novoselka where he lived in the Donetsk Oblast from 2004, after returning from the Chechen war in the rank of a colonel and eventually married.

“Karakhan,” “Khmuryi,” “Nehoroshyi,” “Petrovskyi,”  are all callsigns and nom de guerres of Sergey Dubinsky

In September 2014, several hundred Ukrainian soldiers were in captivity on “DNR” territory after the battle of Ilovaisk. Few managed to make it out of the cauldron. Tiunov was able to drive a group of his people out but was wounded in the process. After finishing hospital treatment, he attempted to contact “DNR” commanders in order to negotiate the release of one more soldier. He received an SMS with a phone number and the text “A person from the military reconnaissance from that side. Call him. You’ll be surprised who answers you.” 

Tiunov dialed the number immediately and blurted: “I am a lawyer from Zaporizhzhia, I want to enter negotiations to release my countryman…”

“Why don’t you speak like a normal guy, Redhead,” laughed a hoarse voice at the other end. “Let’s take it step by step. How many people, from where, who will take them away?”

Tiunov recognized the voice but couldn’t believe it.

“Who am I talking to?” he asked.

“Come on, it’s ‘Karakhan’! – Dubinskyi’s voice answered. – ‘Khmuryi.’ Well?”

At Tiunov’s request, Dubinsky released the captive Ukrainian soldier. A week later, Tiunov called again, pleading this time about a group of Ukrainian soldiers from Zaporizhzhia. “No questions asked – take them! Feeding and guarding them is an expensive fancy,” “Khmuryi” agreed. Then, Tiunov rented the bus to transfer the soldiers himself and in October 2014 departed to a meeting with Khmuryi to “DNR”-controlled Donetsk. Part of him was afraid, the other knew that he would not be harmed – the word of an Afghan veteran was set in stone.

At the place of the meeting, Tiunov was met by armed and masked “DNR” fighters. “Khmuryi” appeared a few minutes later, accompanied by guards who Tiunov identified as Chechen Commandos who Dubinsky served with during the Chechen war. The captive soldiers boarded the bus.

Tiunov stepped aside for a conversation with Dubinsky. “See how life has turned out, Serhiy,” “Khmuryi” said. “We were on the same side in Afghanistan, and now we’re fighting against each other. I still can’t understand why you’re on the junta’s side.”

“I couldn’t restrain myself and answered: but it was you who, like bandits, shot down the passenger plane!” Tiunov recalls. “I saw by his face that he was hurt, he took it personally. He said: ‘I don’t suppose you think I did it [myself]?’ And then he pointed up: ‘The freaks from Moscow did it!'”

“This conversation was unpleasant for him because he needed to find excuses. After all, he was a military person and not a bandit,” Tiunov continued.  “[It was obvious to me]: he understood that he is involved and partly guilty of the death of civilians. So he quickly switched the conversation: time for you to leave, because we’ll be caught and both you and I will be mortared.”

Then, the soldiers from Zaporizhzhia were released without any demands in return. But the 5 captive fighters of the Donbas battalion which Tiunov wanted to release a month later were traded for 2 “DNR” militants. When Tiunov and Khmuryi met, they conversation touched upon the Boeing once again. Then, Khmuryi espoused the Kremlin-developed legend that the plane was shot down by a Su Ukrainian jet. They never met afterward.

Read also: The most comprehensive guide ever to MH17 conspiracies

Tiunov doesn’t consider Dubinsky a bandit.

“He fought in the Donbas as a soldier. Yes, probably, at the criminal orders of his superiors. But I am 100% sure: if he knew it was a civilian airliner and if the launch of the rocket was in his power, he would have never agreed to destroy civilians. Moreover, I heard from him personally: ‘It was the Moscow *** who did it!’ And I will never agree with him being made the largest culprit, as it is being done now.”

Does Tiunov recognize the voice of Dubinsky in the SBU intercepts? He takes a pause before answering:

“Let’s put it this way: the person, who in the SBU recordings is labeled as militant “Khmuryi,” is very similar [in his voice] to Dubinsky. I assume that it is exactly him.”

He later repeats that he doesn’t consider Dubinsky responsible for the catastrophe. “He is the key witness, but not the killer. And also his is my colleague. I want him to stay alive. I think he didn’t press the button of that Buk, only coordinated its transportation.”

The Buk from which, according to the conclusions of the JIT, the Malaysian Boeing was shot down. Witness photo

When Pavel Kanygin found Tiunov, he wasn’t ready to talk about “Khmuryi” at once. He kept silent about his acquaintance with the figurant of the “MH17 case” all these 2.5 years. He says he didn’t know how to help his colleague without harming him. Tiunov attempted to reach his comrade a few more times. “I wanted to help him get out of the situation, and he doesn’t even respond to my messages. The ring is tightening around him. I really want to help him.”

Kanygin offered Tiunov to pass on a message for Dubinsky and departs to Russia’s Rostov-on-Don to personally hand the 5-minute long recording to Dubinsky, who is living in a closed military settlement in a village in the outskirts of the city. Dubinsky picks up the phone, isn’t surprised by the news from Tiunov, but responds that he is not in Rostov and will return only in a week. He promises to call back in two days, but never does, and doesn’t answer calls. Kanygin recorded the phone conversation. Three weeks later, Dubinsky is no longer interested in the message Kanygin holds: he says that he talked with Tiunov and will receive it by email. But Tiunov denies this conversation taking place.

According to significant figures of the “Russian spring,” Dubrovsky was expelled from the “DNR” for fraud and seizing property from locals. Novaya Gazeta was unable to confirm these allegations but found out that after returning to Rostov in 2015, Dubrovsky registered a few cars in his name, including the luxury SUV Volkswagen Touareg.

Dubinsky actively uses his facebook account to engage in open conversations with other Russian-backed leaders of the hybrid “republics” in Donbas. According to a book by the ex-Head of the “DNR Ministry of State Security” Andrey Pinchuk, Dubinsky was the “DNR deputy Minister of Defense” and headed the military reconnaissance of the self-proclaimed republic.

Forensic expertise of the voice

Novaya Gazeta commissioned a phonoscopic investigation to compare the telephone recording of Kanygin’s call with Dubinsky and the voice of “Khmuryi” from the SBU intercept recorded in July 2014. The Russian bureau Versiya, after taking a day to ponder whether they could take on such a politically significant case, said that the technical qualities of the recording were insufficient to reach a conclusion, but a linguistic analysis done by an officer from Rostov (who was however trained not in linguistics but radioelectronics, not linguistics) assured them that the SBU recording featured an imitation of Dubrovsky’s voice.

Experts from the Institute of Neuroscience and Physiology at the University of Gothenburg in Sweden, who Novaya Gazeta offered to conduct an alternative investigation, were of a different opinion. The analysis was done in the laboratory Voxalys, which carries out forensic examinations by order of the Swedish prosecutors, police, and courts, done in the “blind test” manner without context immersion according to the instructions of the International association of criminal phonetics and acoustics (IAFPA). The experts were not briefed on the content of the conversations, in order to avoid any political influence.

The Swedish specialists analyzed only the technical (acoustic) parameters: the tone, frequency, and timbre of the voices. The analysts used a 9-point scale, where +4 is the maximum probability of the correspondence of the voices, -4 – the minimum probability, and 0 means it was impossible for the experts to come to a conclusion. After 10 days of investigating, the Swedes prepared a forensic conclusion which supported the hypothesis of the two voices being identical, giving it a +2.

Document. The conclusion of the expertise.

+2. The result of the examination support that the compared speech material originated from the same person.

Novaya Gazeta is confident that the voice of “Khmuryi” belongs to Dubinsky. His colleague Tiunov insists that Dubinsky did not have the intent to attack the plane with civilians, but that a mistake took place.

Novaya Gazeta continues gathering testimonies.

Related: 

Translated by: Alya Shandra
Source: Abridged and translated from novayagazeta.ru

Tags: , , , , , ,

  • Mykola Banderachuk

    how does this dubinsky war crimminal sleep at nights after killing 300 women and children?
    a typical russian barbarian – may he rot in hell.

    • Dagwood Bumstead

      300 is nothing to the dwarf. Beslan, Nord-Ost, the 1999 apartment bombings in Moscow and other cities, Chechnya……. what are a few dead more?

  • Brent

    I wonder how long Dubinsky has left and will he be given a chance to choose
    1) elevator? (like Motorola)
    2) SUV? (like Mozgovoy)
    3) Office? (like Givi)

    Not that I will feel sorry for him one bit….

    • Oknemfrod

      Probably not much. The Kremlin strongly dislikes keeping witnesses of this caliber alive.

      • Andrew Chmile

        As they say: “NA!”

        —– Copy:
        Murf hath rote:
        “Do Russians consider keeping an out an out War Criminal like Assad in power a success or a failure?”

        Maybe their loudly touted BRIDGE TO CRIMEA?

        Crimea: New houses for resettlers collapsing in occupied Kerch

        I better give you the link …. before you accuse me of, besides
        exaggerating Ruski “engineering incompetence” —- of — “HATE” — as
        the monhol mole “Vasyl P.” just accused me of …. Hurt my feelings
        too! :(

        http://qha.com.ua/en/events-incidents/crimea-new-houses-for-resettlers-collapsing-in-occupied-kerch/140574/

        Uke
        engineers who spent *years* STUDYING about where, how, what kind of
        bridge to build — IF they were going to — were surprised at WTF the
        Ruski were going to do ….. NOTHING they expected …. so here you
        have this BS. Another “GRAND SOVIET PROJECT” type sh*t.

        Have to give a copy to Oknemfrod of this. Why do I think he will be as astonished about this as you are?

      • Dagwood Bumstead

        His only chance of staying alive is defecting and spilling the beans to Kyiv. But it’s probably too late for that now. If he wasn’t watched constantly before, he certainly will be now after Novaya Gazeta’s going public.

        • Oknemfrod

          Perhaps he could contact the Dutch and ask if they offer a witness protection program. Their call on everyone who knows anything about the incident still stands – and does he know a lot.

          • Dagwood Bumstead

            The Dutch government is far too cowardly for that. They are terrified of offending the dwarf, and offering Dubinsky such a deal would definitely offend the dwarf.

    • veth

      Snowplough, cup of lemon polonium tea in an local bar in the country side on his holiday trip, an tree accidentally fall on his car during rush hour in Moscow, an drunk driver hit him on the pavement, his mobile phone accidentally explodes when he phones, struck by lightning (I guess Putin can even arrange that) etc etc

    • Dagwood Bumstead

      He’ll probably simply disappear from view, receiving a bullet in the back of the head in true NKVD style and his body sent to one of the mobile crematoria in Rostov oblast together with the return cargo of dead Dwarfstanians of the next “humanitarian convoy”. As it happens a “humanitarian convoy” is on its way to the Donbas with arms and ammo for the Kolorads, no doubt to pick up the next batch of dead. One more unidentified body won’t attract any attention.

  • zorbatheturk

    As I have said before, it was trained RuSSian military personnel who operated the Buk that shot down MH17. Look at the size of the goddamn thing, as big as a semi truck. You don’t just ” borrow ” or ” find ” a surface to air missile system like that. It came in from RuSSia with its trained personnel, with PUTIN’s blessing. Putin is the terrorist.

    • Oknemfrod

      But of course, it’s been obvious from onset.

      • Andrew Chmile
        • Oknemfrod

          Par for the course.

          • Andrew Chmile

            I always thought it was greatly EXAGGERATED!

            Then I read _Khrushchev Remembers_ by Khrushchev of course…
            Amazing!

            K. kept real quiet about the Holodomor …. made it seem like he didn’t know too much or had much to do with it … Lying Ruski… Heard him once described as “the Butcher of Ukraine.” — But not from his book anyway.

            Funny thing though, Luba the Ruska nanny from TASS, told me (among things was that she didn’t like Ukes :) that “K. was Ukrainian, & that’s why he *gave* Crimea to Ukraine.”

            Hmm… OK …
            Well … at that point, I knew Luba didn’t read the book or know much ….. (“pizda brain”) as K. PROUDLY said he wasn’t a Uke, but a mix of Jew & Ruski. And he PROUDLY reported, that he was born on Russian territory. Well … OK. WHO GAF…

            BUT LUBA DIDN’T KNOW THAT?! — WTF?!
            SHE should be TELLING ME THAT!

            She was the Sovok … a TASS Sovok … from a LINE of TASS Sovoks! — But her parents, very early on, who even in THE OLD “DAZE” — were in Amerika!! — at one point! — made sure little Luba Sovok, had English lessons from her smallest Sovok DAZE.

            Hmm… Later on … I was AMAZED to find out Luba got a GREEN CARD! — Everybody (the NY {& at times WASHINGTON:) Chief Tass Engineer Sovok {very sharp! — HONEST! STRAIGHT! — We both knew who the other was — he didn’t like Ukes either! :)

            But STRAIGHT DUDE! — A Ruski mutation!} — with … numerous technical “duties” shall we say, but we didn’t discuss that… he told me that Luba …GOT A GREEN CARD!!! … I exclaimed in surprise, “Luba is a fookin’ AMERICAN! ”

            So Viktor said, in his crisp, deadpan, tight @ss “way” — said: “YES! Luba is a fuking American.”

            We both regarded her as a pizda brain …. BUT…. maybe not so much …. Hmm…

            We both SLOWLY came to that conclusion. She pissed him off though … in TASS … she was ALWAYS guaranteed some sort of work there … even if it didn’t pay sh*t …. What pissed Viktor off — she bothered him on how to use the fax machine … a FEW times a day …. “AND IT WAS ALWAYS THE SAME BUTTON!!! Then she tells me, ‘you’re the engineer!’ ” :)))

            Returning to the theme, i.e. “Ruski pizdiuke” — K. talked about how, early on, he was doing whatever Ruski sh*t he was doing in Kyiv: “I began to think that the Ukrainians would regard me as a ‘hopeless Rusniak’ because I didn’t know what to do.”

            That ‘hopeless Rusniak’ thing, as the English language translator used as the term, was …. interesting.

          • Oknemfrod

            Khrushchev knew everything about Holodomor.

          • Andrew Chmile

            Hmm… From Viktor … I inadvertently found out, that the tern “Russians” and “Moskali” are NOT interchangeable.

            WHO KNEW? Right?
            All my life I always heard “Moskali this and Moskali that” …. so …OK..

            But to my way of thinking, ALL UKES ALWAYS SAID THAT ALWAYS…. and Moscow is in Russia, and is the capitol in point of fact you know, so it’s the same sh*t, right?

            Not quite, not quite…. I got an inkling when the Natalka Ukie nanny, asked her in Ukie — on the other end of the line was Viktor (we always spoke in English) …. so I asked her: “Pani Natalka, scho Moskali yedat?” — She started laughing … Viktor said nothing…

            Natalka told me later, you don;t SAY THAT — unless you know the Moskal very well …. OOPS!!! SH*T!

            Heard it from Viktor later… When it was just us … They get MAD at that sh*t! — Who knew?

            Strange bunch!
            How it is.

            .

          • Andrew Chmile

            More later …. “laker48” — the LYING polak
            ————– fo’ you (MURF)
            & Paul (Oknemfrod) — polak posted on a Ukie-polak article on
            another Euro Press page — LYING AGAIN!!!…. so …. GOD IS JUST!!!

            polak shouldn’t fuk with Ukes!
            ============== Begin:

            “laker48” is a **LYING** COWARDLY anti-Ukrainian, polak CHAUVINIST who posting as “max Canada” called for the “partition of Ukraine along historical lines per the Treaty of Versailles.” — polak SCUMBAG indeed.

            Whether as “laker48” or “max Canada” his posting profile is hidden. His above EASILY PROVEN LYING will be addressed. With HONEST & accurate “distaste”.

            But FIRST — who is this LOUDLY “LYING*, COWARDLY, anti-Ukrainian, polak?

            FB: https://www.facebook.com/zygmunt.janiewicz
            Polak’s nasty photo below.

            What *LYING* polak RACIST sounds like {EVIL!}:
            http://tinyurl.com/n6jclfv

            *LYING* polak’s translations & whereabouts biz:
            https://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/member66708.htm
            ——————
            B.C. broker fined $60,000 after single-mom loses $64,000
            A British Columbia broker has been fined $60,000 after his client, a single-mother with two children, lost $64,000 in 11 months of aggressive trading.
            Zygmunt Janiewicz, who worked for Global Securities Corp. in Kelowna, B.C., has been barred from the industry for six months and ordered to repay his commissions.
            http://tinyurl.com/oymaaot

            Hmm… was the polak “churning” this widow woman’s (?) account most GREEDILY? Like a SCUMBAG?
            ——————-

            Let’s see:

            IN THE MATTER OF THE INVESTMENT DEALER
            S ASSOCIATION OF CANADA (ENFORCEMENT DIVISION)
            AND
            ZYGMUNT JANIEWICZ

            [PDF] Zygmunt Janiewicz Reasons for Decision
            http://tinyurl.com/k85aqce

            Hmm …like I figured, as judging by his *LYING* posting habits & deceitful, “holy polak victimhood BS act”. WHAT A POLAK @SSHOLE! That EVIL polak POS!

            He cheated that poor widow woman with the 2 little kids, that naively TRUSTED that lying, polak SCUMBAG!

            Open the link above & read the for yourself!

            *LYING* — CONNIVING — CHEATING, GRASPING, polak [email protected] put the simple “housewife & mother” into HIGH RISK *PUT* OPTIONS & DIDN’T BOTHER TO EXPLAIN OR TELL HER! — Knowing full well she didn’t know much.

            The *LYNG* polak *COWARD* & Ukraine hater, didn’t even have the CHARACTER to appear at the hearing and have the DECENCY to apologize to the woman and her kids…. just took the “default judgement” — polish SCUMBAG!!!

            IDA imposes $50,000 fine and six month suspension
            on Zygmunt Janiewicz

            http://tinyurl.com/kjyqtez

            Hmm photo later — good thing I saved a copy earlier! — He’s removed any close photos of his EVIL, *LYING*

            WIDOW WOMAN SWINDLING polak face!

          • Alex George

            Even assuming any of this is true, what is its relevance to this thread, or indeed to anything?

    • Turtler

      To be fair and play devil’s advocate, from what I have heard from a couple people during the bleeding eighties and early nineties black market corruption in the military and civil sector did result in some truly mind boggling cases of theft. So I can’t Completely rule out the idea that somebody with greasy palms has the theoretical ability to make something like this disappear.

      But in this specific case No. The “Novorossiyans” have clearly been getting their weapons and resources direct from Palerossiya. Putin’s the mofo responsible for this.

      • Alex George

        Has there ever been a case of a large anti-air missile system going missing?

  • Turtler

    Good job for the NG. They and Bellingcat have been consistently at the forefront of this kind of stuff for years. I only hope the time will come soon where we’ll be able to bring these tards to justice.

    • Lew

      What do you mean…? Putin would have to take responsibility for the plane, and the entire mess… may as well ask for a “golden shower” video ….

      • Turtler

        “What do you mean…? Putin would have to take responsibility for the plane, and the entire mess”

        That assumes a form of justice where Putin is even remotely an actor. which I have long ago dismissed as unlikely.

        The NSDAP never officially acknowledged that it had staged the Glenwitz attach and blamed it on Poland, they were still charged with crimes against the peace for it.

        “may as well ask for a “golden shower” video ….”

        Unfortunately for humanity, there are plenty of “golden shower’ videos around. It is not my cup of tea to say the least, but try going around Tor.

        As for the Golden Shower Dossier, the reason we’re not likely to ever have a video confirming it is because it was probably a bunch of libel put together by opposition research and unethically financed by the FBI. And even if by the off chance there was anything even remotely more to it, it’s so obscured behind nameless sources talking to nameless sources that it can’t be taken seriously as evidence without further proof.

        Proof that has not been forthcoming in the least.

        • Lew

          I have no wish to see the fabled video… or belief that it exists… , that the event may have happened, I believe is in the realm of … possible…
          I believe Trump has, in the past been very vocal about his lack of respect for our former President, and, his legitimacy of the post…
          The question becomes, is that his true feelings, or is he just rallying his base?

          • Turtler

            “I have no wish to see the fabled video… or belief that it exists… that the event may have happened, I believe is in the realm of … possible… ”

            Sure, it’s the realm of the possible, but lots of things are. I would also classify the accusations that Obama somehow did not renew his US citizenship after his sojourn in Indonesia (as opposed to the flatly deranged Birther stuff) as in the realm of possibility, since they have about as much “evidence” behind them.

            But they’re unlikely as get out. And frankly even as a supporter of Trump there’s far more credible reasons he butt kissed Putin in the past than some kind of urine based blackmail. Even in the Soviet period where they repeatedly deployed honey traps and “swallows” to trap Western officials and try to get them to do their bidding the KGB usually didn’t rely on this kind of stuff. They preferred outright entrapment.

            So until further evidence is presented I will generally discount it in practice, even if I will not claim it is completely impossible or never happened in theory.

            “I believe Trump has, in the past been very vocal about his lack of respect for our former President,”

            Honestly, I’ve been more vocal about my lack of respect for Obama than Trump ever has, especially given the compliments he gave Obama and Hillary at his inauguration speech, which are two things I am completely unwilling to grant.

            I didn’t dress up as a blackshirt like some of these “Antifa” thugs today and advocate for “resistance” to a lawfully elected government (which Obama almost certainly was), let alone the overthrow of it. But respect for the legitimacy of the office has nothing on my utter lack of respect for the previous occupant, especially since I know a couple people personally who got screwed over by his attempts to paper over the Iran deal.

            Trump does spend a fair bit of time trading punches in the dirt with his rivals and engaging in insults, and at least a fair bit of his supporters traffic in conspiracy theories (sometimes with his support). And I am not stupid or naive enough to think I like that.

            But it’s also something just about every presidential tier candidate does. The fact that the Clinton campaign helped fan the Birther flames and tends to attack from surrogates (as Shattered- an enlightening book on the whole- shows) just underlines it. Tis the nature of the world, unfortunately.

            “and, his legitimacy of the post… ”

            See above on the former, and he certainly didn’t show much doubt of that during his own inauguration. Which makes me doubt he was ever a Birther or the like.

            “The question becomes, is that his true feelings, or is he just rallying his base?”

            A good question in general, and your instincts are good on that. Trump does flip flop and awful lot and throw out red meat for his supporters while simultaneously trying to appear “reasonable” (relatively so) to the public. So doubting the sincerity of what he says and his posturing is generally a good idea.

            However, in this case… I do think it was. It’s worth noting that Trump spent most of his life as a New York democrat who donated to Hillary and Obama a few years ago. So he’s probably on the left side (and statist side) of the Republican party as a whole, and while I imagine the animosity from both sides on the campaign has ruined a lot of emotions I think he is naturally used to getting along with Obama and the Clintons.

            Of course, I could be wrong, but that is my gut feeling. (And Neo-Neocon, who I highly recommend as an astute and critical Trump watcher, shares my broad opinion on that)

  • Lew

    “Pavel Kanygin, a special correspondent at the Russian outlet Novaya Gazeta” …

    one more reporter soon to be toast… Putin needs to swing from his ankles on a meat hook just like “The Duce”…