Six Lessons from the Debaltseve defeat

Ukrainian troops leaving Debaltseve

Ukrainian troops leaving Debaltseve 

Military analysis, War in the Donbas

The Debaltseve cauldron is coming to an end, Nikolay Mitrokhin says, and Ukraine is going to lose. Several thousand Ukrainian soldiers will “in the best case” become prisoners, enormous stockpiles of military equipment will be lost, and “the moral spirit will suffer from the strongest possible attack.”

At the same time, he writes in a commentary on Grani.ru today, “the war with Russia will not end with this but only stop and it will be a good thing if this is for several months.” But now is the time to try to answer two important questions: Was this loss necessary? and What should Ukrainians and others learn from it?

The answer to the first is “not so simple,” Mitrokhin says. On the one hand, the Debaltseve salient after the successful advance of the Ukrainian army last summer gave the Ukrainian military significant strategic advantages, including the ability to attack key rebel cities, block transportation routes between Donetsk and Luhansk, and thus affect the region’s economy.

But “from the first half of August, the situation changed fundamentally,” he writes. “The Ukrainian army was no longer opposed by divided and poorly armed groups of militants.” It was facing a Russian army with dozens of tanks and artillery pieces, and that army was led by an experienced Russian general.

As a result, “the Debaltseve salient became a problem for the Ukrainian army.” It simply didn’t have sufficient forces to hold it against a concerted attack although it did have enough to repulse smaller ones. That should have led to the withdrawal of Ukrainian forces to prevent loss of lives and materiel, but it didn’t. Why is currently the subject of dispute.

Some blame the Ukrainian military command which “turned out to be incapable” of assessing the situation and husbanding its resources. Others blame the political leadership which did not want to pull back anywhere and which presented the defense of the Debaltseve salient as a new “Stalingrad” for Ukraine. That of course makes its loss all the more bitter.

That makes it critically important, Mitrokhin says, to answer the second question and see what lessons can be drawn “from the sad history of the Debaltseve cauldron.” He suggests there are six that Ukrainians and their supporters should be drawing now.

  1. “The Ukrainian army showed that it on the whole could effectively mount a defense” not only against irregular militias but even against individual Russian units armed with tanks, something that should give Kyiv some basis for hope in the future.
  2. But at the same time, Debaltsevo showed that the Ukrainian forces “could not attack a strong opponent,” something that won’t change until there is a new group of commanders, more troops and better weapons. As a result, “as long as Russian forces remain in the Donbas, one cannot talk about any decisive attack” by Ukrainian forces there.
  3. During these battles, “the Ukrainian army experienced problems with the supply of everything except bullets, and it remains unclear when Ukrainian civil society will have the means, forces and patience to support it.” That will require major reforms of “the entire state apparatus,” which are currently taking place “too slowly.”
  4. The Ukrainian army is “too small and too poorly equipped with contemporary weapons.” It needs to receive them from abroad, but it also needs to think about producing more “not so much for an attack as for defense” because that is what it will be engaged in over the coming months.
  5. “The Minsk agreements have not led to a complete ceasefire and even if they work, after the final defeat of the Debaltseve grouping, the war will continue.” That is what the militants want because they cannot exist in peacetime: they don’t know how to deal with the social and economic challenges of peace, and they don’t want to give up what they see as the glory of war.
  6. “The losses among the Russian irregular army for the last month and a half … have been so great (no fewer than 1,000 men)” few will want to take part in another offensive. If the pro-Moscow forces are to advance then, regular Russian military units will be needed. “That is something for which Russian society and Ukraine and the co-sponsors of the peace process must be prepared.”

Edited by: A. N.

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  • Frank

    Lesson number 1 should be:
    NO ARMY CAN WIN A WAR OF OCCUPATION.

    Get it through your thick heads. The people of the east do not want to be ruled by the thugs in Kiev. Its that simple. They dont want Kiev taking away their language rights and making them feel like second class citizens.

    Maybe instead of having this pointless war, you should have a war on the Oligarchs (including the new set Maidan brought to power) who have systematically raped the country into poverty.

    After Maidan:
    – 1000s Dead
    – 100k + Refigees
    – Country Divided
    – Crimea Gone (without a single shot)
    – Currency Collapsed (1/3 its value of Yanukovich)
    – 1/2 country destroyed
    – MH17
    – Higher Prices for Goods
    – Higher Prices for Natural Gas
    – POROSHENKO RICHER!!!!
    – YATSENYUK RICHER!!!
    – NAZI Fringe Groups have more power
    – ZERO REFORMS

    GREAT JOB!

    • canuke

      Your response is a joke from your very first point: it is an oxymoron: “No army can win a war of occupation.” Heed those words carefully. There’s a Russian army of occupation in Donbas, and the majority of rebels are from Russia. Remember when Strelkov complained last summer that he couldn’t even raise 1000 troops amongst the locals there. The only thuggery we have witnessed since the Spring is from your beloved leaders in the banana “republics” of “novorossiya”.

    • Rods

      “Lesson number 1 should be:
      NO ARMY CAN WIN A WAR OF OCCUPATION.”

      Which is why Brezhnev failed in Afghanistan and Putler will lose in his invasion in East Ukraine. Don’t forget your GRU agent Strelkov said 3 million citizens in the DNR and I can’t recruit 1000 of them! Likewise the USSR lost with their invasions of Hungary and Czechoslovakia in the 1950s. These countries are now rich, free states, and members of the leading global organisations; the EU and NATO.

      It doesn’t normally take long for Putin’s paid trolls to join the ranks of Ukrainian patriots, which is why they disappear from here very quickly, we don’t know where, but the rumour is the failures end up as cannon fodder in Ukraine. Brave Ukrainian troops going forward, Russian barrier troops if you retreat, don’t worry, whichever you choose the outcome is the same.

      Now your leading argument is fully supporting the Ukrainian position against the Russian invasion, we might as well jointly say “Glory to Ukraine”.

      PS: Probably best if you boss doesn’t see this as getting paid by one side and supporting the other never has a good outcome!

      • peacemonger

        Oh cmon, almost 50% of Donbass citizens are ethinc Russians, so even if only 10% of them joined the DNR, it is still enough.
        Your “Glorious Ukrainian army” is retreating further, and just lost an important railway hub. The commanders are complete morons, everyone had seen this comming, even the separatists themselves said few weeks ago, that they will encircle the Debaltseve.
        If you believe Ukrainian MoD that during the retreat of the 8000 troops “only 22 men died”, then I advice checking mental health. A number that low is not even remotely possible.
        Also IMHO you can already forget about Donbass, not to mention Crimea.
        Go ahead and call me putinist troll, but these things are facts, not some Andriy Lysenko BS.
        P.S.: I hope you know, that Hungary and Czechoslovakia are not the best examples, as Hungary as well as both Czech Republic and Slovakia have pro-Putin governments…

        • Nanart

          you are a putinist troll and not the one with a notable IQ either.

          Now, do you know how many ethnic Russians fight in the Ukrainian army, moron?

          If ethnicity meant anything in this war, ethnic Ukrainian Zakharchenko would not be Putin’s slut:)

          • Dirk Smith

            Civility vs. Gangsters.

        • Vyacheslav Polovin

          What do you mean “50%”? Is more than that! Where did you get this number?

          • canuke

            Ummm, no. The 2001 census showed 39% Russian in Luhansk, and 38.2% Russian in Donetsk. Perhaps you should get your figures correct.

    • misusan
    • Turtler

      “Lesson number 1 should be:
      NO ARMY CAN WIN A WAR OF OCCUPATION.”

      Frank is a fucking idiot. If no army can win a war of occupation, how did Caesar conquer Gaul? Why is China not a tiny realm around the Yellow River? Why is Germany not waving the Swastika today?

      Because reality does not bow to a thug and Putin apologist. And someone who cannot learn the lessons of history WILL BE HISTORY.

      “Get it through your thick heads.”
      The irony of you accusing other people of having thick heads….

  • Rods

    The Debaltseve salient with only one major supply road and a pinch point with two lakes was an accident waiting to happen and the army should have evacuated it before they were forced out.

    This not give 1″ of territory was a disaster for Hitler in WWII and certainly hastened the end of the war compared to withdrawing forces to good defensive positions and having the forces and equipment to defend in strength. This a lesson as the smaller weaker army in the conflict needs to learn fast or more bigger disasters will be forthcoming.

    The war will only end when Putin decides it will end NOT Obama, Merkel or Hollande and Ukraine needs to set up defence in depth at good defensive positions to make the Russian army and their proxies pay as high a price as possible. As the human and monetary costs mount to Putler and Russia there will come a time when domestic pressure will start to mount and hopefully with it the evit dictator Putler’s demise.

    Glory to Ukraine.

    • Aldous Huxley

      Why would you put your nation thru all this death and destruction and chaos, to leave the old evil empire,[USSR] only to join the new evil empire US / NATO / EU? Obama has done far more evil in the world than Putin, from arming terrorists in Libya and Syria, to buying off your Rada politicians, to eviscerating rights and freedoms here in the US, to trying aother coup in Venezuela… why would you want Obama as your new overlord? Why would you sell your sovereignty to overlords in Brussels for a few tanks?

      If you sought Finland style independence and sovereignty, I’d applaud and support you. but prostituting your selves to the empires on either side, just for the ‘glory’ of being on the front lines of another world war…. makes zero sense.

      • Turtler

        I find it absolutely hilarious you’re yelling at the US for “arming terrorists”, when the dictatorships of Libya, Syria, and Venezuela have all been far. Far more guilty of that.

        “If you sought Finland style independence and sovereignty, I’d applaud and support you.


        Are you forgetting that Finland only chose that AS A DESPERATE LAST RESORT when there was no other choice? When they were forced into the front lines of world wars, logically tried to defend their independence with allies, and couldn’t have it?
        I know how Finland got that way. It is not a road that anybody wants. But of course, why not fight alone, without supplies, without aid, to appease the ego of someone who is not willing to give them any actual help?
        And you wonder why they are looking for help…

        • Aldous Huxley

          You think the road to neutrality would have been worse than the war they are fighting now? I don’t think so.

          • Turtler

            Hey, GOPHER!

            They TOOK the road to neutrality before! Neutrality has been enshrined in the Ukrainian constitution SINCE INDEPENDENCE.

            So why don’t you pull your head out of a hole and LOOK where they are now. And THEN tell me where the road to neutrality that they took led.

          • Aldous Huxley

            they have allowed enormous amounts of foreign meddling by both sides since independence. I think you must have no clue what ‘independence’ really means. The US NED alone dumped $5 billion into building up Ukraine’s fascist political parties.

          • Turtler

            “they have allowed enormous amounts of foreign meddling by both sides since independence.”

            And GUESS WHAT? That’s the condition MOST neutral nations find themselves in. Both now, and historically. That doesn’t make them not neutral, in fact it often means just the opposite.

            Which still gets back to my main point. Your solution has been tried, AND THIS IS WHAT IT RESULTED IN.

            Take responsibility for once in your life.

            “I think you must have no clue what ‘independence’ really means.”

            No, you don’t think. Period.

            And you certainly don’t know what I do or don’t have clues on. Like you didn’t know your idol, Chomsky.

            ” The US NED alone dumped $5 billion into building up Ukraine’s fascist political parties.”

            Define “Fascist Political Parties” and provide proof.

            Keep in mind that unlike you, my family actually felt what it was like under Actual Fascism (when it called itslef that), and I actually have the printed rectal matter of Il Dunce himself defining Fascism. So if you’re lying I *WILL* know.

          • Aldous Huxley

            Neither the US nor Russia were allowed by Finland, pre-1991, to meddle in Finland’s internal politics and policies, by buying off politicians, building up political parties, etc.. as Russia and the US have done in Ukraine.

            here are some interesting pieces containg evidences the USA has turned fascist:

            http://www.fascismusa.com/

            http://www.rightsidenews.com/2014012833797/editorial/us-opinion-and-editorial/is-america-now-a-fascist-state.html

            http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2103295/Ron-Paul-says-U-S-turning-fascist-state.html

            http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/275-42/8599-carl-gibson-america-has-become-a-fascist-police-state

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism_in_North_America

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism#Position_in_the_political_spectrum

          • Turtler

            “Neither the US nor Russia were allowed by Finland, pre-1991, to meddle in Finland’s internal politics and policies., to meddle in Finland’s internal politics and policies, by buying off
            politicians, building up political parties, etc.. as Russia and the US
            have done in Ukraine.”

            UTTER IGNORANT HOGWASH.

            The Soviet Union retained a defacto veto power over most Finnish foreign policies until its’ collapse (to the point that Kekkonen actually blackmailed his opponents and the electorate with them, by claiming he was the ensurer of peace). In the meantime, the CIA set up long range transmitters to broadcast pirate radio into the occupied Baltic Three.

            So you don’t know Jack about Finland, its’ history, or what it means to be neutral. So you’d be best off not even bothering.

            “here are some interesting pieces containg evidences the USA has turned fascist:”

            A bunch of lies for the price of one. They’re not interesting, and they don’t contain evidence that the US has turned fascist. I didn’t even have to crack open my books to debunk them, because it’s a clear indication you wouldn’t know what true Fascism is even if it poured castor oil down your throat.

            It’s proof of nothing more that you can google, and are too empty headed and impressionable that you will believe just about anything. While also being unable to make an actual argument.

          • Aldous Huxley

            I said “… meddle in Finland’s INTERNAL politics and policies…” you said “The Soviet Union retained a defacto veto power over most Finnish FOREIGN policies…”

            INTERNAL , as in the opposite of FOREIGN. What you said does not in any way obviate any of what I said. So learn to read you idiot.

            As for the CIA “set up long range transmitters to broadcast pirate radio into the occupied Baltic Three.” Nothing Finland can do about that.

            Your foolish choice to ignore the evidence for Amerika’s growing fascist tendencies is not something I have control over.

            good day.

          • Turtler

            Are you SERIOUSLY fucking stupid, ignorant, or dishonest enough to suggest that (amongst other things) intimidating Finnish political figures and (particularly in the Soviet Union’s case) using extortion and threats to prevent a nation’s government from determining its’ own policies (including BUT NOT LIMITED TO foreign affairs) is not Meddling?

            How about forcing the Finnish Censorship organs to BAN films that it deemed too anti-Soviet?

            I gave a brief, broad overview of poor Finland’s role in the Cold War rather than give a blow by blow account of every case of meddling, because it wasn’t necessary to prove my point and because it would not matter to someone as biased and unrepentant as you. But that in no way means that I cannot. Just the opposite.

            “As for the CIA “set up long range transmitters to broadcast pirate
            radio into the occupied Baltic Three.” Nothing Finland can do about
            that.”

            Does the depth of your ignorance know no bounds? They were set up with the allowance of the Finnish government (and a very nervous one given Soviet pressure). They could have EASILY denied approval. Or if they were set up anyway without Finnish approval, they could have been tracked down and forcibly shut off.

            They were not. For various reasons, including Finnish hesitation to antagonize the Western Allies even when they based *Personnel And Material* off of Finnish Soil.

            The bottom line is this. You hmmed and hawed about how innocent being being attacked and murdered by a dictatorship were not worthy of your support because they were not pursuing neutrality.

            It was shown that they HAD pursued neutrality as you said- up to and including putting it into the Ukrainian constitution- and it was largely responsible for this.

            You tried to say that they should’ve been more like Finland under the logic that it didn’t have any foreign influence on it (later changed to “internal” influences).

            You were proven Wrong again, and at this point it’d be less embarrassing for you to stop commenting altogether. You are clearly out of your league and unwilling to do basic research.

            You were also caught claiming CHOMSKY of all people was evidence of how “Fascist” America was. You not only were unable to explain how that was so, but Chomsky was proven to be an incorruptible crack and totalitarian apologist.

            So you were wrong on those counts, and were *also* wrong to say he made that mistake in the early days of his life when he was young, AND to call the Cambodian genocide just a “mistake that does not ruin a life’s work.”

            As if it were a single mistake, atypical, or not something that is more than enough ot ruin a man’s honor.

            You are perhaps the most disgusting figure I have come across here. So I will not waste my time saying “Good Day.” In fact, I hope you have a VERY BAD day. Because if you want to trivialize the suffering and death of millions in an idiotic attempt to save face in an internet debate, you should deal with the karma.

            Enjoy being flagged.

          • Aldous Huxley

            first, can we try to keep this debate civil? There’s really no need for the name calling. you only diminish yourself by it.

            “…”intimidating Finnish political figures… using extortion and threats to prevent … forcing the Finnish Censorship organs to BAN films…”
            —source? sounds like a paranoid conspiracy theory to me. show me the evidence.. I am more than willing to admit it when I’m wrong.

            “”As for the CIA “set up long range transmitters to broadcast pirate radio into the occupied Baltic Three.” Nothing Finland can do about that.”
            –sorry I misunderstood your post. I thought you were talking about broadcasts made from Germany. Radio broadcasts are a very low level form of meddling and these broadcasts were not made in Finnish, so they don’t count as meddling in Finland’s affairs.

            “You tried to say that they should’ve been more like Finland under the logic that it didn’t have any foreign influence on it (later changed to “internal” influences).”
            –You (deliberately) misunderstand me. Of course Finland had pressures on in by both sides… but they were able to successfully chart a course between the influences and maintain their sovereignty. Ukraine should follow that model.

            “yelling at the US for “arming terrorists”, when the dictatorships of Libya, Syria, and Venezuela have all been far. Far more guilty of that”
            –so your argument here is that 2 wrongs make a right?!?!? WRONG. moreover its false. Libya, Syria, and Venezuela don’t even have the resources to match US arms given to terrorists. source please.

            I will not be lured into defending Naom chomsky against your virile attempts at character assassination.

            Earlier I said “Obama has done far more evil in the world than Putin, from arming terrorists in Libya and Syria, to buying off your Rada politicians, to eviscerating rights and freedoms here in the US, to trying another coup in Venezuela.”

            –i find it really interesting and telling that you have no response to these criminal actions by the US. Clearly you support US thuggery no matter how criminal it may be.

          • Turtler

            “first, can we try to keep this debate civil?”

            So after throwing around some of the worst indictments of all- Fascism-, resorting to logical fallacies aplenty (including the Appeal to Authority to someone who was a totalitarian apologist, and one you aren’t very well versed in at that), being dismissive of said apologist’s denial of the murder of millions of innocent people as a mere “mistake”, and showing aggressive disdain for research or basic fact checking Now you’re concerned about a civil debate?

            That’s a laugh.

            You’re days late, and a Fort Knox-sized dollar short.

            The truth is I do not give two damns about being civil to you. You had your chance and you threw it away. So I will not bother to maintain a respectful tone fo rthe same reason I wouldn’t with a particularly thick Nazi apologist.

            “There’s really no need for the name calling,
            you only diminish yourself by it.”

            First, I am not interested in being lectured about name calling by someone who has tried to brand innocent people (and the US) with the mark of “Fascist.” Amongst others.

            Secondly, I disagree. What diminishes someone is callously condemning thousands to death because you don’t think they are trying to be “neutral.” In spite of the fact that you are woefully ignorant of both what they tried and the examples you use. It is using a totalitarian apologist (without bothering to do basic research) to condemn the US is Fascist without giving a single bit of explanation.
            And it is countless other things you have demonstrated in this debate thus far.

            If I’m not supposed to call diminishing a genocide and denial of it into a mistake “Stupid”, “Ignorant”, “idiotic”, and “disgusting” , pray tell me What am I supposed to use those words for? It is what it is.

            Or am I truly supposed to believe it’s lessening to call a particularly thick headed Neo-Nazi or Benito Mussolini fan what they are? I see no issue with calling something what it is. in brutally blunt, accurate terms. Being uncivil to evil is not a sin.

            “—source?”

            So after spewing a whole lot of unadulterated, unscourced (or unreliably sourced) BS, NOW you ask for sources?

            Well, let’s start with Almost any biography of Urho Kekkonen. I am not exaggerating on that, because as the most Finlandized of Finland’s leaders he maintained extensive contacts with the Soviet Union and often used that influence against his domestic political adversaries (probably far too freely to be “just doing what he had to” to avoid invasion).

            Two of the most obvious examples are the “Night Frost” Crisis and the “Note” Crisis. The former was when the Soviet Union’s hostility to the (anti-Soviet) Finnish social democrat party climaxed after the 1958 elections led that party to take leadership. At which point they began a very aggressive diplomatic and trade offense against Finland and its’ government. Kekkonen ultimately met with Khruschev, promised to be a good neighbor, and first refused to support and then pressured the democratically elected Prime Minister to resign in the face of the Soviet offensive.

            In 1961 an East German (and Soviet dictated) note was leaked which detailed Soviet anger and fear over the resurgent West Germany, its’ budding contacts with Scandinavia, and Finland’s role with them. It included a not so veiled threat about “military consultation” between the USSR and Finland, indicating that the Soviet Union was contemplating an invasion or coup (not unlike Czechoslovakia).

            Finland reacted in a panic for very good reasons. Kekkonen sent his foreign minister and ultimately himself to the Soviet Union for more discussions, the threat of Soviet intervention helped pressure Kekkonen’s main rival to avoid the race, and ultimately Kekkonen made assurances to Khruschev that he would be the Kremlin’s “watchdog” in the Nordic North in order to officially get the Soviets to back off.

            To this day the exact details of who started what are fuzzy on both, but they are certainly the two most blatant cases of the Soviet Union shoving itself into neutral Finland’s affairs (both domestic and internal). Most books on Finland during this period cover them, but I have found few better sources than “The Ideological Cold War: The Politics of Neutrality in Austria and Finland” by Johanna Rainio-Niemi and WIlliam Bell’s “Finland- the Kekkonen Years”. “Europe, Cold War, and Co-Existance: 1955-1965” by Wilfred Loth is a close runner up.
            But I overstate.

            They are publicly known and acknowledged by Finland and its’ government and merely plugging the stuff into the computer would tell you plenty.

            (Which raises the question of why you haven’t checked yet…)

            Those were by far the best known and probably most direct way the Soviet Union meddled with Finland’s affairs (both foreign and neutral), but they were far from the only times. And while they were the main one, they were not alone.

            “–sorry I misunderstood your post. I thought you were talking about broadcasts made from Germany.”

            Alright, but you screwed up in one main problem. Because you fell into the issue of misunderstanding it in the first place.

            A: Don’t rely on the post, do your own homework. Look at the actual background so you’ll know what’s coming down the tubes. Nobody can know everything, but it would help.

            B: *Why in God’s Name* did you think I be talking about Finland if I was talking about radio waves *From Germany*? It doesn’t even make sense.

            You can draw a straight line from Germany into the Eastern Block, and have Finland have absolutely nothing to do with it. The most that would have would be “splash” from the radio waves rippling out from their source. So why would I be mentioning it then?

            A little Occam’s Razor and thinking goes a long way.

            “Radio broadcasts are a very low level form of meddling and these
            broadcasts were not made in Finnish, so they don’t count as meddling in
            Finland’s affairs.”

            Even this is shifting the goal posts. You previously rationalized the idea that Ukraine should pursue neutral status (as if it didn’t already *have* that…) by saying it would prevent the great powers from meddling in its’ affairs.

            Then you accused me of not knowing what independence or neutrality meant, and then you tried to draw some sort of byzantine difference between interference in “foreign” affairs and interference in “domestic” affairs as a justification for lauding neutrality.

            Now you’re admitting that radio broadcasts reaching another nation’s soil do count as meddling, but say they don’t for your byzantine algorithm of what makes “true” neutrality? Under the the logic that they weren’t made in Finnish, as if- you know- people won’t set up illicit receivers and *learn the language*? Because the BBC’s groundbreaking WWII work and the Cold War pirate radios showed otherwise.

            There is a reason why there was a vast population with a functional understanding of English in the former Soviet territories. So pick one measuring stick and hold to it. If you can’t keep one standard straight, you’d probably be better off not measuring in the first place.

            “–You (deliberately) misunderstand me.”

            No, I don’t. I just know the issue far better than you do, like I know your idol Chomsky far better than you do.

            “Of course Finland had pressures
            on in by both sides… but they were able to successfully chart a course
            between the influences and maintain their sovereignty. Ukraine should
            follow that model.”

            A: It didn’t work.

            Finland managed to hang on to their sovereignty by a fairly thin thread. To the point where Finnish policy was summarized (by one of its’ main architechts) as “Bowing to the East (the Soviet Union and its’ totalitarian influences) so carefully as to not moon the West (The Western Allies, and the free world in general).” As I detailed above, they had to make a huge number of morally, legally, and ethically dodgy compromises to keep it.

            Ukraine didn’t get the chance there. They tried to balance it out, but when Putin would fly into a rage and start rigging elections or waging trade wars over a generally pro-Kremlin leader *signing a highly popular trade agreement with the EU*, it’s all but impossible. Especially since it did not have the same experience warding off Muscovite Russian assimilation as Finland did.

            It was either break free or be annexed piecemeal. As Armenia is painfully learning.

            B: The two sides were never even close to an equal threat to sovereignty. On the one side you had the Western Allies. Who while admittedly scheming, capable of doing murky business, and have a lot of blood on their hands were not totalitarian expansionists. Even as early as post-WWI the US showed it was willing to talk with even highly socialist, anti-clerical factions like the Cristero War Mexican government.

            And contrary to popular imagination, they did not launch Operation Ajax or help overthrow Arbenez *just* because of economic disagreements.

            The Soviet Union and Putin’s Russia on the other hand… not so much.

            C: And who are we to disagree with a democratic vote by Ukraine? Even during times of Blue (pro-Russian) electoral dominance, they have favored increased integration with the West. And especially now that the other plan of “integration/good relations with Russia’ is gone.

            They had the chance to pursue the sort of neutrality you describe (and did). It didn’t work out for them and now they don’t want it. So who are we to say “No, you can’t join the cool kids club because we don’t want you?”

            “–so your argument here is that 2 wrongs make a right?!?!? ”

            Wrong yourself.

            My argument is that those who claim we armed terrorists in Syria and Libya have woefully little idea on who we actually armed. And who are further ironic to complain about it considering the regimes of Gaddafi’s Libya, Baathist Syria, and Chavezist (I’m not going to dignify them with Bolivar’s name) Venezuela have *ALL* been massively guilty of it themselves.

            Here’s a bloody hint: Not All of the anti-Gaddafi or Anti-Assad fighters are terorrists, certianly by our standards. Secondly, we don’t like arming people who will turn their weapons on us at a given moment.

            That doesn’t mean that we haven’t armed terrorists before (the umbrella resistance that started with Khmer Rouge remnants comes to mind), or that we didn’t arm them now (either accidentally through some “The Trust” esque operation, from woeful ignorance bout what a group actually is, from a hostile group mugging a non-hostile one for its’ CIA approved Lunch Money, or the like). But it does mean we try to avoid doing it.

            “moreover its false.”

            No it is not.

            “Libya, Syria, and Venezuela don’t even have the resources to match US arms given to terrorists. ”

            Where do I even Start with this tissue of logical nonsense?

            A: Total Arms Production / = / “Arms given to terrorists.” The US has a vastly larger arms manufacturing capacity than virtually anybody on the planet. But that does not meant it is *anywhere* near as crucial a measure of US state policy as- say- funding terrorist proxies is to Iran or its’ ally the Assad Dynasty.

            B: I love the weasel words. “US arms”. As in merely “arms from the US” rather than “arms delivered from the US government or other proxies to terrorists.” Unlike Syria, Venezuela, or Gaddafi’s Libya, the US is a free country and a free market with a lot of surplus guns (even Russia is a free firearms market in spite of being not free elsewhere). Private contractors can and do make private deals with morally shady organizations with zero government involvement.

            It’s true that this has been orchestrated as a proxy/plausible deniability move by the US government itself, but the point stands. In contrast, the three regimes I mentioned were explicitly totalitarian. VIRTUALLY NOTHING got out of the country without it being the explicit intention of the dictatorship. Which means they owe far more responsibility.

            C: What sources do you even have for that? If it’s Noam “US-Nazi Alliance” Chomsky, Go Fish for another one because I’m not even going to dignify it with my time.

            “source please.”

            A: SourceS.

            B: You say it’s “WRONG and moreover false”, and THEN ask for sources?

            Talk about mixed effing messages. If you don’t know it’s wrong and false (which you obviously do not), DON’T EMBARASS YOURSELF AND SAY THAT.

            As for the actual meat, where do i even start? I dunno, most of the literature dealing with the Assad Regime, the Colombian Civil War, or half of Gaddafi’s crazy stunts come to mind.

            But let’s start with these.

            http://yris.yira.org/essays/1251 And the sources attached to it.

            https://www.hsdl.org/?view&did=11047

            http://www.peacebuilding.no/layout/set/print/Regions/Africa/Publications/Chad-s-relations-with-Libya-Sudan-France-and-the-US

            (Mostly pertaining to Gaddafi’s role, but it also does some good coverage of the Khartoum regime. Another bad actor if there ever was one>0

            http://insct.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Libya-Report-27-April-2011-final-with-Cover.pdf

            http://www.haaretz.com/news/syrian-president-vows-to-keep-supporting-hezbollah-hamas-1.212293 (If you have some sort of vendetta against Israeli sources, you can confirm by getting a cheap translation device and going after the regime’s original announcements).

            Also, in terms of printed literature de b. Taillon’s “Hijacking and Hostages: Government responses to terrorism” is a wonderful analysis of the terrorist movements of yesteryear. Particularly valuable for this because of how it ties to the Gaddafi and Assad roles, and that of FARC’s “Bolvarian” supporters.

            Byman’s “Confronting Syrian-Backed Terrorism” Is also good for breaking down the House of Assad’s strategy and role in funneling resources to terror groups, and how to confront it.

            Martin’s “Understanding Terrorism: Challenges, Perspectives, and Issues” is also decent but IMHO a bit dry and bland.

            Also, MEMRI is an immensely valuable source for getting the pulse of the Middle East in general, and especially terror-sponsoring media from the likes of the Assad. Sadly, I do not think there is any sort of dedicated Spanish language program of the same quality about FARC or Latin American problems.

            I considered providing overviews about arms, but then I found I couldn’t find many of the books I have and I figured it wasn’t necessary. The above and others prove my point well enough. But as it stands, you can easily supplant by just googling with a critical eye

            “I will not be lured into defending Naom chomsky against your virile attempts at character assassination.”

            This sentence is a GOLDMINE of hypocrisy, stupidity, arrogance, and faulty logic all rolled into one.

            A: If you really are in the right, *WHY* are you so hesitant about being “lured into” defending Noam “Khmer Rouge” Chomsky? If you’re in the right (in spite of getting basic chronology about his life and writings wrong) you have nothing to fear and plenty to gain

            So why not?

            B: “Virile attempts at character assassination.” So you think it’s “character assassination” to call out someone who maliciously denied the genocide of the Cambodian people, the totalitarian nature of Hanoi, and how the Soviet Union was not a benevolent or peaceful empire that let go but one that had to be forced off (amongst many other sins)?

            Well then, Prove It.

            C: Blaming me for launching a character assassination of Chomsky is like convicting someone of murdering a suicide. Chomsky’s own words and actions are what damn him well above my humble skills.

            Perhaps not in your eyes where apologia for autogenocide killing millions can be a “mistake.” But that’s on the same level as Fascists (actual Fascists, that is) who justify Il Duce’s illegal gassing of hundreds of thousands.

            It is disgusting and beneath contempt.

            “Earlier I said “Obama has done far more evil in the world than Putin,
            from arming terrorists in Libya and Syria, to buying off your Rada
            politicians, to eviscerating rights and freedoms here in the US, to
            trying another coup in Venezuela.””

            And you were still just as wrong as you were then, I merely narrowed it in on a few things. In part because I agree about the curtailing of rights and freedoms here in the US (though NOWHERE near what Putin has done).

            For one, Obama didn’t buy off the Rada. If you had proof, you should’ve put it foreward now. In contrast to Putin, who did try to. And when that failed, he resorted to threats and intimidation. As we saw with the EU agreement.

            For two, the fact that you are typing this “here in the US” is a good indication that Obama has not “eviscerated rights and freedoms” like Putin has in Russia.

            Because in case you are too stupid to get the message, actual despots do not work like that. I know because my family dealt with the original, ACTUAL Fascist. Mussolini. And here’s a hint. You didn’t get people writing stuff like you have in public here.

            I don’t make a big point of it because it is beside the point. The evidence and logic would be equally valid even if I did not, as is the fact that “Fascism” is not defined as “Whatever The Hell You, Noam Chomsky, and the rest of the Peanut Gallery on both sides Want It TO Be.” And the vast majority of the Fascist or Fascist-inspired regimes have been enemies of the US (Syria for one). Peronist Argentina is perhaps the biggest single exception.

            And I already killed the “terrorist” thing to death.

            On all parts, you were

            “i find it really interesting
            and telling that you have no response to these criminal actions by the
            US.”

            And I find it really interesting that after all this time, you are still too fucking stupid to understand a couple basic points.

            Starting with the fact that I did respond to your claims about those criminal actions, especially the “supplying terrorists” lie. Whether or not you choose to accept that or not is your problem, but it doesn’t change the basic truth.

            Secondly, “Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence.” I did not address all the points directly. But thenI was as busy providing sources, correcting your ignorance about neutrality, correcting your ignorance about Putin, correcting your ignorance about Ukraine and its’ constitution, and trying to have real life in the middle of it in posts that were already massive.

            So blaming me for forgetting to address a few points in detail is irrelevant. Especially since you are more to blame for not researching the damn things in the first place.

            And finally, that it’s bullshit like this that made me conclude that treating you like a civil, reasonable human being was pointless. Because you did not act like it.

            Contrary to your prior claims that you can understand when you’re wrong, you showed absolutely no evidence of that previously. As emphasized by missing this. The first and so far only example was you admitting that you misunderstood my point about WTH the transmitters were based, and I think that was largely because it was a simple fact that could be proven by a map from either government. And one that I could slap upside that empty head of yours.

            Which is still an improvement over this and its’ ilk.

            “Clearly I support anti-US thuggery no matter how criminal it may be.”

            There. Fixed it for you.

            What’s that? You don’t like it?

            Then you shouldn’t be surprised that you’re treated like an uncivil thug, and your appeal to keep it civil was a joke.

            In truth, I DO object to a lot of US behavior. Especially under dear old Obama. Because while I am far more of a supporter in “sausage making” than most, even I have my standards.

            For instance, our heavy-handed and sloppy pronunciations about the Military-Muslim Brotherhood struggle. Our decision to go for the kill in Guatemala and Iran rather than at least *try* to talk to Arbenez and Mossadegh before going in. Our decision to prop up the Gulf Dictatorships that keep biting our hand. Our decision to prop up the Turkish and Pakistani regimes for the same issue. Our blacklisting any Cuban who wants to fight for freedom against Castro. Our appeasement of Franco and Salazar. Our tendency to be quick on the coup button in general.

            Our decision to betray our allies to Putin’s tender mercies, and to backstab our allies under Eisenhower in the late 1940’s and 1950’s. The fact that we prematurely pulled out of Afghanistan and Iraq not because it was right, but because it was more convenient. Our appeasement of Iran and refusal to even acknowledge people like the Green Revolutionaries while pandering to every Central Asian tyrant in the book. Our refusal to take responsibility for Haiti…etc.

            And I could go on. In fact, I could probably list far more genuine wrongdoings the US has done than you can, especially since I’m not laboring under the handicap that comes with believing you live in a police state worse than Putin when *You acknowledge you’re writing your claptrap from the US.*

            But I didn’t mention any of this, because it wasn’t material to the discussion at all. Because all of the charges you DID bring up were the products of your own ignorance, overweening arrogance, and a ton of misinformation.. And those were the ones I went after, because constructing a comprehensive, open-ended analysis on every issue would be too damn long, too damn boring, and most likely something a person who takes Chomsky as the Holy Grail or even someone worth defending could understand.

          • Aldous Huxley

            Here is why I think you and the Bush / Obama regimes are fascist:

            — a massive domestic surveillance apparatus, i.e. NSA spying:
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center, https://nsa.gov1.info/utah-data-center/

            — a militarized domestic police force that shoots innocent people and gets
            away with it:
            http://www.alternet.org/how-swat-team-killed-innocent-man-outside-his-childhood-home

            — a news media system that is controlled by the corporate elite:
            http://www.businessinsider.com/these-6-corporations-control-90-of-the-media-in-america-2012-6

            — mass criminalization of the mentally ill:

            http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/we-spend-9-billion-year-lock-people-mental-illnesses-heres-what-we-should-do-instead)

            — mass criminalization of racial minorities:
            http://www.pbs.org/wnet/tavissmiley/tsr/education-under-arrest/school-to-prison-pipeline-fact-sheet/

            — has a massive superiority complex:
            http://www.commondreams.org/news/2014/05/28/obama-i-believe-american-exceptionalism-every-fiber-my-being

            — is imperialistic:
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_military_bases#Overseas,
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions

            — invades other countries on the basis of lies (i.e. Iraq)

            —has the highest percentage of its population in prison:
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate

            —and has a massive corporate welfare system:
            http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/2/corporate-welfaresubsidiesboeingalcoa.html

            P.S. Sure Putin is a fascist too. Not my problem.

          • Turtler

            How quaint.

            Still no fucking definition of what Fascism is. or how the US would qualify under the definitions of the CLASSICAL Fascists. Especially since the US had many of the features of that before at a time when Mussolini and his ilk could’ve commented on it. But besides some weasel words they didn’t.

            Still no farqing explanation on how I am wrong, Chomsky and you aren’t, and how my knowledge is inferior.

            And then you sprout this hogwash.

            “— invades other countries on the basis of lies (i.e. Iraq)”

            False. Every single basis for the invasion of Iraq was proven true. Right down to the WMDs that the New York Times is now saying.

            And you expect me to talk to you civilly when you can’t do it?

            “P.S. Sure Putin is a fascist too. Not my problem.”

            Ah yes. What a display of principle, honor, and historical awareness that is.

            Newsflash. If Putin was a Fascist (and I am not sure, though he is obviously something bad) he would be (and is) everybody’s problems. Even the little internet troll that can’t read Ukraine’s constitution or what Finlandization means.

          • Aldous Huxley

            Dear Evil Fascist Pig who calls himself Turtler,

            Thanks for coming back online after a month to defend the unconscionable lies and and aggressions of your fellow fascists in the US government!

            Here are are 2 adequate definitions of fascism:

            http://www.rense.com/general37/char.htm
            http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/202210/fascism

            Here’s why i think Amerika meet Dr Britt’s 14 points:
            http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

            Regarding your latest ridiculous BS propaganda based assertion that the Iraq War was not based on a lie (this post is more geared towards showing that both Clintons and all of DC were in on the LIE, but it will have to do as i refuse to waste more time on someone as pathetically lost as you):

            Clinton used the Iraq’s WMD are a threat lie before Bush did DUH!

            http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1998/12/16/transcripts/clinton.html

            http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Clear_and_present_danger

            Who ‘lied’ us into the war in Iraq? BOTH Clintons, Kerry, Pelosi, Gore, McCain, and Bush and many more all participated in that endeavor. either they all (both R’s and D’s) lied or they were all telling the truth.. you just can’t have it both ways – Either Bush and Clinton LIED, or neither lied.

            so pretty much every one of the presidential candidates we got to choose from supported the the idea that Iraq had an active WMD program from 1996 to 2002, that those weapons were a threat to us, and the invasion of Iraq…. unbeknownst to the majority of Americans. What does that tell you about US ‘democracy?’

            It’s not all Bush or Clinton’s Fault. Everyone in Washington DC is responsible for this obvious propaganda lie! All intelligent people outside DC knew it was a lie too. You obviously forgot about House Resolution 4655 that Bill Clinton signed, calling for regime change in Iraq by all means necessary. You obviously ‘forgot’ that 49 out of 102 targets for Operation Desert Fox in 1998 were directed at Presidential sites, in an obvious attempt to regime change Iraq by assassination. Meanwhile despite Clinton’s claim that the Operation’s primary purpose was to degrade WDM capabilities, only 6 out of 102 targets were associated with WMD sites (leftovers from the pre-1991 programs). What Bush did was a policy Clinton started to implement in 1998, long before 9-11-2001.

            Bush was sorta, kinda, maybe, but not really, proven not to be a complete and total liar….! Bush claimed Iraq had an ACTIVE chemical AND BIOLOGICAL program. However US troops found some degraded sarin nerve toxins – chemical WMD only, no biological. Secondly, that sarin was so degraded it would have been more dangerous to the people trying to use/launch it than to the targets. Thirdly that sarin and other toxic junk found was not from an ACTIVE program, which Bush and Clinton claimed Iraq had, they were LEFTOVERS from Iraq’s pre-1991 programs. Fourth, the UN knew about that sarin and all the other toxic junk ISIS found at Al-Muthanna Plant, and had sealed and catalogued it – they destroyed all the viable weapons they found, but left the degraded toxic junk for Saddam to pay to clean up. Fifth, even if Iraq did have viable/usable WMD’s, which they didn’t, they still were not a threat the USA, as Bush and Clinton claimed because they had no way to hit us with those WMD’s.

            CLINTON TOOK THE LIE FURTHER by claiming Iraq also had an active NUCLEAR WMD program, an assertion Bush never really made. that pile of 550 metric tons of yellowcake Uranium was unknown to Clinton and did not come from Niger as Bush falsely claimed (via Colin Powell’s cooked up fake ‘evidence’). That yellowcake was also a LEFTOVER from Iraq’s pre-1991 weapons program. Iraq had no centrifuges left to use to enrich the yellowcake. A pile of yellowcake does not make an ACTIVE Nuclear WMD program. There was never ANY evidence available to Clinton that Iraq had an ACTIVE nuclear program. Not 1 shred. The UN inspectors all said pretty positively that Iraq did NOT have a nuclear weapons program. Clinton LIED EVEN Worse than Bush. The only difference was that Clinton did not have to fake any evidence to back up his LIES, because Democrats always get a free pass from the press to LIE.

            PS Here is another one of Clinton’s lies:

            The alleged ‘attack’ on Bush Sr. never happened.

            P.S.
            Just because Russia is the ‘bad guys’ in your hyper-nationalistic, idiotic worldview, does not automatically make America the ‘good guys.’ We actually have to do good things, and not do evil things, to be in the right. Thanks at least, for having admitted (above) to so many of America’s evil hubristic foreign interventions (Arbenz, Mossadegh, Khmer Rouge, illegally arming ‘terrorists’ in Syria and Libya, etc.) as opposed to living in denial like so many of your fellow fascists!

          • Turtler

            I stopped reading after you insisted that the child of anti-Fascist Italian-Americans- who has actually READ the original books penned by the creator of Fascism to better understand who he is fighting with- was a Fascist.

            And tried to prove so by dropping several *secondary sources*. Including one that called Franco of all people a Fascist (rather than a typical and murderous right wing, unrevoluntary dictator who tried to neuter Spain’s actual Fascist movements like the classical Falange).

            The bottom line is that after all this time, you are still a monstrous coward. One who has offered no justification for his lack of sympathy to Ukraine in spite of their stated attempts to be neutral in the constitution. One who fucked up the basics of Cold War Finland, Fucked Up The Basics of Chomsky, and Sucks at Logic in general.

            Watching your posts is to watch a clueless little claw of Hitler and Putin. Which is why I will not bother. You had your chance, and you have sacrificed it all.

          • Aldous Huxley

            I see. So Franco has to be a non-fascist so that you too can be a non-fascist…. even though pretty much everyone else in the world agrees that Franco was a fascist.

            You screwed up when you falsely claimed Bush didn’t lie us into war in Iraq. you are to much of a coward to even debate that.

            You screwed up when you tried to character assassinate Noam Chomsky over a mistake he made in the 1970’s and apologized for, rather than sticking with the topic at hand, and insisted he was somehow my idol, all over 1 tiny little citation.

            You screwed up when you refused to have a civil debate, and insisted on engaging in ad-hominems, proving yourself to be a typical fascist thug.

            You screwed up when you insisted on a definition for fascism and I gave you several and then you ran away from that debate, while hypocritically accusing me of being a coward.

            You screwed up when you insisted that Ukraine’s current Civil War is better for Ukraine than Finland style neutrality would be.

            You screwed up when you claimed Ukraine was seeking independence, when Ukraine is clearly seeking to surrender its independence to the unelected EU Lords in Brussels.

          • Turtler

            “I see.”

            At this stage, you seeing ANYTHING would constitute a miracle. So I doubt you have started now.

            ” So Franco has to be a non-fascist so that you too can be a non-fascist….”

            Once again with the fucking stupid assumptions.
            In order for that to make any kind of sense, it would have to mean that I identify with Franco or his kind.

            I do not.

            In fact, even as a Right winger and Christian I actually sympathzie more with his *opponents*, even considering they included totalitarian riders like the Communist Party, and bruta anarchists and terrorists like the CNT/FAI’s powerbase.

            Why? Because for all the problems of the Spanish Republic, it was the legal government. Not an usurper trying to take it over. And with it, there’s an inverse relation between the amount of control it had and how violent it was (with the thugs in its’ ranks only coming to play when control slipped). With Franco it was a straight correlation.

            So why do I say that Franco wasn’t a Fascist?

            Because He wasn’t. Simple as that. And Suharto is dubious to the extreme at best (Sukarno is if anything a better candidate).

            “even though pretty much everyone else in the world agrees that Franco was a fascist”

            False. Contrary to the delusion you have, several of the most prominent experts on Franco and the Spanish Civil War said otherwise.

            As did the actual Spanish Fascists didn’t agree. Franco
            persecuted them , let their leaders get disposed of, and then ripped out
            its’ core and forcibly merged it with their rivals the Carlists until
            there was nothing less. He sided with the Caudillos against revolutonary
            populists like the Fascists, Anarchists, and Socialists. He ruled
            nominally as regent for a Kingdom (something the Fascists were not fond
            of). And he took perverse pleasure in seeing his Italian allies get
            humiliated.

            His ideology was plenty murderous, but it owed more
            to the Habsburg Absolutists, not Mussolini’s Fascisti. And contrary to
            the delusion you have, here’s a good exa”
            “Franco was not a fascist. There is an element of revolutionary politics in fascism, of wanting to
            provoke a dramatic change in society. That was not Franco’s intention: on the contrary, he wanted to preserve Spain from change.” – Filipe Ribeiro De Meneses

            “He was never a member of any political party, and thus there
            was no equivalent of the Nazis or the Fascists in Spain. The Falange, as we have seen, was the nearest Spain came to possessing a fascist party, but Franco took actions to limit its importance – and members of the
            Falange responded in 1940 with an assassination attempt.” – Robert Pearce.

            And I could go on and on and on. But it would be irrelevant and beyond the point. It underlines that you don’t know what the hell you were talking about, and it would not change what Franco was. To which I will give De Menses the great, final word.

            “…The debate as to whether Franco was a fascist is in many ways irrelevant, since the denial of Franco’s fascism has often been an essential part of attempts to legitimise his actions. The fact remains that his brutality matched
            or even exceeded that of Mussolini’”

            And that i will never deny.

            Now, are you done making yourself look like a coward, an idiot, and a fool? Or do you intend to continue?

            “You screwed up when you falsely claimed Bush didn’t lie us into war in Iraq. you are to much of a coward to even debate that.”

            No, I did and I bluntly killed your slander. Even the New York Times admits to it now.

            http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/10/14/world/middleeast/us-casualties-of-iraq-chemical-weapons.html

            “You screwed up when you tried to character assassinate Noam Chomsky over a mistake he made in the 1970’s”

            It isn’t character assassination to note the facts. And it certainly isn’t a mistake to go out on the limb and deny the Khmer Rouge’s brutality, then say that even if they were autogenocidal it was because of American bombings, and then say that America needs de-Nazification because of some mythical US-Nazi alliance.

            Amongst other things like abetting a Holocaust denier’s viewpoint (rather than merely his right to free speech like apologists such as you have claimed).

            Those are all integral marks of character that can’t be washed away by cheap apologies. Those all mark Chomsky out as a dishonest, totalitarian apologist with a pen.

            “You screwed up when you insisted on a definition for fascism and I
            gave you several”

            You gave two. NONE OF WHICH HAVE ANY MATERIAL AT ALL from the group who defined the fucking thing in the first place (AS I SPECIFIED).

            And the second of which gave such priceless links about California doomsdays and Zionist Claptrap. As well as flat out dubious examples- at best- like Franco and Suharto.

            All while accusing me of being a Fascist. And thus proving yourself to be a fucking idiot.

            I didn’t respond to the debate because it is obvious you weren’t prepared to take it seriously. A lot of Mussolini and Hitler’s philosophy (such as it is) is out there in public. The only reason for you to not look it up but instead to believe the first hogwash that popped on your screen is because YOU WERE TOO LAZY AND COWARDLY.

            I would say you weren’t worth my time, but apparently I got a new follower because of it. So maybe slapping you down is worth something.

            “You screwed up when you insisted that Ukraine’s current Civil War is better for Ukraine than Finland style neutrality would be.”

            No, I didn’t. Because I actually know a bit about Cold War history and Finlandization. In which Finland gave up much of its’ independence to retain some of it.

            As I beat you bloody with last time. When you were so uneducated I HAD TO CLARIFY ABOUT CIA BROADCASTS FROM IT.

            “You screwed up when you claimed Ukraine was seeking independence,
            when Ukraine is clearly seeking to surrender its independence to the
            unelected EU Lords in Brussels.”

            The EU doesn’t have “EU Lords”, and they aren’t unelected. But even if that were true it’s not like nations or groups seeking more independence haven’t aligned with more distant overlords in the hopes of freedom. Hence why Novgorod kept electing Muscovites to check Tver until it was too late.

            “You screwed up when you refused to have a civil debate,”

            No, YOU did that.

            From the very first post here you insisted that those opposed to you were Fascists. In spite of obvious ignorance of what that means. Ignorance that is now obviously willful.

            You had the chance to debate honestly and actually learn. You cast it aside after the first few rounds. And now you are resorting to random, secondhand definitions off the web to try and say otherwise.

            By those things, you have marked yourself. And anybody who looks at you will nothing more than a little claw of Putin.

            A very stupid, ignorant one.

          • Aldous Huxley

            From your own source:
            “The debate as to whether Franco was a fascist is in many ways irrelevant, since the denial of Franco’s fascism has often been an essential part of attempts to legitimise his actions.”

            So it is CLEARLY DEBATABLE that Franco was a FASCIST, but here you are stating that it is an ABSOLUTE, despite your own source admitting that people who have done so were biased. I would have no problem categorizing Franco, Bush, and Obama as Fascist-LITE (as opposed to Hitler, and Prime Minister Tojo Hideki, and arguably Mussolini being more extremely fascist). But to say that they were definitely not, is arrogant and narrow minded. I suppose if you think Franco was not fascist you would deny the Japanese were also fascist…. Again, I clearly see that you are trying to absolve yourself of something by narrowing the definition of fascism.

            So what is your definition of fascism???

            Just because Franco beheaded and co-opted the Falangist movement, is not evidence he was not a fascist. He had no ideology of his own with which to replace Primo de Rivera’s ideology. The Falangist faction’s troops fought with the other ultra-nationalist factions, because Franco made the other ultra-nationalists more fascist, rather than making Falange less fascist. The only serious distinction between Franco and Falange was that Falange tended towards anti-clericalism, and Franco was pro-clerical. but we see that Mussolini was pro-clerical and maintained the monarchy, just like Franco. Hitler had no monarchy to maintain, but he also played up his connections to the protestant faith of Germans. so we see that Falange’s anti-clericalism was not a definging characteristic of fascism. You’re wrong.

            “As did the actual Spanish Fascists didn’t agree. Franco persecuted them , let their leaders get disposed of, and then ripped out
            its’ core… opposed populists like the Fascists, Anarchists, and Socialists. He ruled nominally as regent for a Kingdom (something the Fascists were not fond of). And he took perverse pleasure in seeing his Italian allies get humiliated. His ideology was plenty murderous, but it owed more
            to the Habsburg Absolutists, not Mussolini’s Fascisti.”

            –None of that is evidence Franco was not fascist. That is evidence of a power struggle for control of the fascist movement, and of Franco’s narcissism. Italy and Japan’s fascist both retained their king/emperor as well. Again, 150,000 of Rivera’s falangists continued to fight for Franco, after Franco disposed of Rivera and turned him into a martyr, because Franco was a fascist.

            “I actually sympathize more with his [Franco’s] *opponents*, even considering they included totalitarian riders like the Communist Party, and bruta anarchists and terrorists like the CNT/FAI’s powerbase. Why? Because for all the problems of the Spanish Republic, it was the legal government. Not an usurper trying to take it over. And with it, there’s an inverse relation between the amount of control it had and how violent it was (with the thugs in its’ ranks only coming to play when control slipped).”

            –see that right there is why you are a fascist too. you think that its okay to exert thuggery if CONTROL slips. you are all about control. you think the ends justify the means. you don’t believe in man’s liberty, not to be controlled. that is also why you support Bush’s disastrous Iraq war…. you think America has right to CONTROL what happens in Iraq.

            Listen your own source you ignorant lunatic!!! From your own Source, the New York Times:

            “After the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, Mr. Bush insisted that Mr. Hussein was hiding an ACTIVE weapons of mass destruction program, in defiance of international will and at the world’s risk. United Nations inspectors said they could not find evidence for these claims.

            Then, during the long occupation, American troops began encountering OLD chemical munitions in hidden caches and roadside bombs. Typically 155-millimeter artillery shells or 122-millimeter rockets, they were remnants of an arms program Iraq had rushed into production in the 1980s during the Iran-Iraq war.

            All had been manufactured BEFORE 1991, participants said. Filthy, rusty or corroded, a large fraction of them could not be readily identified as chemical weapons at all” [EMPHASIS added] No evidence was found of ACTIVE WMD were found. These leftover WMD’s mostly found buried, were unusable and did not represent the threat Clinton and Bush claimed they represented. CLINTON and BUSH LIED when the claimed Iraq had ACTIVE WMD programs and extant WMD that were a “CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER.” Rusty buried WMD presented no danger to America, until we invaded on the pretext of the LIE, and exposed our soldiers to the buried nerve agents and other toxic waste.

          • Aldous Huxley

            This right here is where YOU STARTED making this debate uncivil you fucking LIAR.

            “Hey, GOPHER!….. So why don’t you pull your head out of a hole….”

          • Turtler

            “This right here is where YOU STARTED making this debate uncivil you fucking LIAR.”

            No, you did. By accusing the entire Western world of being an evil empire, making wild accusations you couldn’t prove, and generally fucking up.

            And I will quote your very first post here.

            “Why would you put your nation thru all this death and destruction and
            chaos, to leave the old evil empire,[USSR] only to join the new evil
            empire US / NATO / EU? Obama has done far more evil in the world than
            Putin, from arming terrorists in Libya and Syria, to buying off your
            Rada politicians, to eviscerating rights and freedoms here in the US, to
            trying aother coup in Venezuela… why would you want Obama as your new
            overlord? Why would you sell your sovereignty to overlords in Brussels
            for a few tanks?

            If you sought Finland style independence and sovereignty, I’d applaud
            and support you. but prostituting your selves to the empires on either
            side, just for the ‘glory’ of being on the front lines of another world
            war…. makes zero sense.”

            If you think accusing the entire West of being an Evil Empire is “civil”, then you have no idea what civil is.

            If you think stating that those murdered do not deserve your sympathy because they were not trying to achieve what your uneducated mind thought Finlandization was…? Well, that just makes you an unrepentant jagoff.

          • Aldous Huxley

            The US has 638 military bases in 150 overseas countries and territories. OF COURSE it is an EMPIRE. that is a FACT, not an insult. do you think 13 small colonies became 50 states plus a dozen overseas territories, plus vassal nations by accident? Do you think we have bases in Korea 60+ years after the end of that war because we are altruists?? Get a clue moron.

            As you said, “It isn’t character assassination to note the facts.” and it isn’t an insult to call you and the our Amerikan leadership fascists, if I substantiate it as fact, as I have endeavored to do.

            You claim to be a Christian. The Bible says “No one is good, all have turned to evil.” But you claim America is good? how’s that work?

            Anyways. I didn’t make up the term ‘evil empire.’ Ronald Reagan did. Remember the Talmudic expression, “when you point the finger at others, remember there are 3 fingers pointing back at you.”

            Name 1 evil thing Russia has done that Amerika has not also done????

          • Turtler

            So now you’re trying to say that you weren’t breaking the basic laws of civility by accusing entire continents and their people of being evil. If you cannot tell that that is not civil, you obviously have no definition of the term.

            “You claim to be a Christian. The Bible says “No one is good, all
            have turned to evil.” But you claim America is good? how’s that work?”

            By not putting your head up your ass and quoting scripture selectively. Which is why I thrashed another Putinbot for quoting Romans: 13 as if it were a vacuum.

            Here’s what the Bible says IMMEDIATELY AFTER it.

            “Do all these evildoers know nothing? *They* devour *my people* as though eating bread; they never call on God.”

            The “They” of whom “No one is good; all have turned to evil” are explicitly separated from “my people; the Children of Israel and devout followers of God.

            Which clearly tells us something. Sin is a constant problem int he mortal world and virtually all people and organizations live with it. But that IN NO WAY justifies saying that all people of the Earth are all evil, and that none of them know God.

            Which is why accusing someone or something of evil was seen (correctly) as a very grave matter. And why if it was done falsely it was a very grave offense indeed. Whether at the time the Pslams were compiled, or today when you are trying to say you were perfectly civil while calling a huge swath of the world evil merely for where they live.

            Anyways. I didn’t make up the term ‘evil empire.’ Ronald Reagan
            did. Remember the Talmudic expression, “when you point the finger at
            others, remember there are 3 fingers pointing back at you.””

            I do, but you’re also misusing and abusing it to Hell. And I mean that literally.

            There is no sin at pointing one’s hand out and identifying an evil empire where there actually is one (though at wildly accusing it is another thing).

            Samuel was not wrong to point his finger (in some traditions literally) and accuse Saul of breaking the Covenant of God. Nahum pointed at the sins of the Assyrian Empire without reproach. And so on down a list of prophets, kings, seers, and wise men throughout the books.

            And you know what the Bible also says?

            “Woe to the city of blood,
            full of lies,
            full of plunder,
            never without victims!
            The crack of whips,
            the clatter of wheels,
            galloping horses
            and jolting chariots!
            Charging cavalry,
            flashing swords
            and glittering spears!
            Many casualties,
            piles of dead,
            bodies without number,
            people stumbling over the corpses—
            all because of the wanton lust of a prostitute,
            alluring, the mistress of sorceries,
            who enslaved nations by her prostitution
            and peoples by her witchcraft.”

            Such is God’s verdict to evil empires. Actual Evil Empires.

            Thuseth ends “Online Sunday School From One of the Lay Believers 101.” If you are that ignorant about God’s work, you really need to seek out far better help than I. But this is also why the Ignorant should not try to debate scripture.

            “Name 1 evil thing Russia has done that Amerika has not also done????”

            Let’s start with “breaking the Budapest Memorandum” and “cutting short its’ own promised election in the supposedly liberated land by one day, during which it was declared annexed before the votes were meant to be finished.”

            We can go from there, but that’s a decent start.

          • Robert de Brus

            Aldous, so true and sad also. Its been in the works for a long time. The New World Disorder. A handful of connected people made billions. Cheney is one. Pig.

          • cargosquid

            Great post.

            I disagree with a lot of your statements….but still…a great post.

          • Turtler

            Thank you. And thanks for the follow. Maybe arguing with this loon was worth something more than keeping sharp.

            Out of curiosity, what did you disagree with?

          • cargosquid

            Just off the top of my head…right now…..

            Franco WAS a fascist. Just like Mussolini and Hitler.

          • Turtler

            Far from it. He was certainly a mass murderer, dictator, and unapologetic brute who had his men parade severed heads on bayonets and kill almost anybody he opposed not unlike Hitler and Mussolini.

            But Fascism does not equal evil. It’s a fairly specific though admittedly vague revolutionary philosophy, and not one that everyone who got into bed with Hitler or Mussolini agreed.

            One of the key things is to check the literature and philosophy he wrote like Mussolini and Hitler…..

            … except he really didn’t write any of it. Unlike how everybody can and does remember things like Mein Kampf or the speech reels of Hitler and Mussolini gesticulating like mad. Franco didn’t didn’t write much, did not do so about any revolutionary philosophy, and while his was certainly a cult of personality his idea of the Caudillio was not akin to that of the Duce or Fuhrer. As you can see by his decision to punt the succession to a Bourbon rather than create a new order.

            A key litmus test is how he treated his actual Fascist allies, both domestic (in the Old School Falange like that of Jose Antonio, which Franco wound up crushing) and foreign (he was *infamously* difficult to negotiate with, as Hitler and Mussolini found out. Which was why he never declared war on their side in WWII).

            That in no way means he was a good man. In fact he was a very, very bad one. But one can be a very, very bad dictator without being a Fascist.

          • cargosquid

            As I said, we will have to agree that we disagree.

            I will research this more when I have more time.

          • Aldous Huxley

            “One of the key things is to check the literature and philosophy he wrote like Mussolini and Hitler…..

            … except he really didn’t write any of it.”

            –so to be a fascist you have to be an author and write books??? that is ridiculous. WRONG. To be a fascist you have to ACT like other fascists ACT.

          • Turtler

            “–so to be a fascist you have to be an author and write books??”

            Once again you (intentionally) misunderstand me. I pointed that fact out as just *one indication* among MANY (which I will finish slapping you with later) that indicates Franco did not behave like a Fascist leader ideologically.

            ” To be a fascist you have to ACT like other fascists ACT.”

            On that much I agree.

            Which is why it’s worth remembering: the leading and indisputable Fascists of world history- Mussolini, Hitler, etc- WROTE BOOKS. GAVE SPEECHES, FORMED PHILOSOPHIES of what crimes they were doing, how they were indispensable leaders of key function to the nation/race/culture/civilization, talked about how they were reorganizing society (usually against both the evil Communists and the ossified aristocrats) , and so on.

            Franco didn’t act much like that. He was not much of a speaker (partially because of his voice pitch), he was not much of a writer. And certainly not a philosophical one. He did not see his office as an integral part of Spain; he eventually arraigned for his successor to be a Bourbon Royal (who wound up dismantling his tyranny).

            How he acted and how he viewed the world did not have much in common with Fascists like Hitler, Mussolini, or even oddballs like the Brazilian Integralists and the Croatian Ustasha. His actions and ideology were more like that of a mid-17th century Habsburg warlord-general, and actual Fascist contemporaries noted and held him in contempt for it.

            So no, you do not have to write books in order to be a Fascist. But it is certainly a major hint.

          • Aldous Huxley

            I guess you didn’t see this post when I put it up the first time:

            From your own source:
            “The debate as to whether Franco was a fascist is in many ways irrelevant, since the denial of Franco’s fascism has often been an essential part of attempts to legitimise his actions.”

            So it is CLEARLY DEBATABLE that Franco was a FASCIST, but here you are stating that it is an ABSOLUTE, despite your own source admitting that people who have done so were biased. I would have no problem categorizing Franco, Bush, and Obama as Fascist-LITE (as opposed to Hitler, and Prime Minister Tojo Hideki, and arguably Mussolini being more extremely fascist). But to say that they were definitely not, is arrogant and narrow minded. I suppose if you think Franco was not fascist you would deny the Japanese were also fascist…. Again, I clearly see that you are trying to absolve yourself of something by narrowing the definition of fascism.

            So what is your definition of fascism???

            Just because Franco beheaded and co-opted the Falangist movement, is not evidence he was not a fascist. He had no ideology of his own with which to replace Primo de Rivera’s ideology. The Falangist faction’s troops fought [alongside] the other ultra-nationalist factions, because Franco made the other ultra-nationalists more fascist, rather than making Falange less fascist. The only serious distinction between Franco and Falange was that Falange tended towards anti-clericalism, and Franco was pro-clerical. but we see that Mussolini was pro-clerical and maintained the monarchy, just like Franco. Hitler had no monarchy to maintain, but he also played up his connections to the protestant faith of Germans. so we see that Falange’s anti-clericalism was not a defining characteristic of fascism. You’re wrong.

            “As did the actual Spanish Fascists didn’t agree. Franco persecuted them , let their leaders get disposed of, and then ripped out
            its’ core… opposed populists like the Fascists, Anarchists, and Socialists. He ruled nominally as regent for a Kingdom (something the Fascists were not fond of). And he took perverse pleasure in seeing his Italian allies get humiliated. His ideology was plenty murderous, but it owed more
            to the Habsburg Absolutists, not Mussolini’s Fascisti.”

            –None of that is evidence Franco was not fascist. That is evidence of a power struggle for control of the fascist movement, and of Franco’s narcissism. Italy and Japan’s fascists both retained their king/emperor as well. Again, 150,000 of Rivera’s Falangists continued to fight for Franco, after Franco disposed of Rivera and turned him into a martyr, because Franco was a fascist.

            “I actually sympathize more with his [Franco’s] *opponents*, even considering they included totalitarian riders like the Communist Party, and bruta anarchists and terrorists like the CNT/FAI’s powerbase. Why? Because for all the problems of the Spanish Republic, it was the legal government. Not an usurper trying to take it over. And with it, there’s an inverse relation between the amount of control it had and how violent it was (with the thugs in its’ ranks only coming to play when control slipped).”
            –see that right there is why you are a fascist too. you think that its okay to exert thuggery if CONTROL slips. you are all about control. you think the ends justify the means. you don’t believe in man’s liberty, not to be controlled. that is also why you support Bush’s disastrous Iraq war…. you think America has a right to CONTROL what happens in Iraq.

            Listen to your own source you ignorant lunatic!!! From your own Source, the New York Times:

            “After the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, Mr. Bush insisted that Mr. Hussein was hiding an ACTIVE weapons of mass destruction program, in defiance of international will and at the world’s risk. United Nations inspectors said they could not find evidence for these claims.

            Then, during the long occupation, American troops began encountering OLD chemical munitions in hidden caches and roadside bombs. Typically 155-millimeter artillery shells or 122-millimeter rockets, they were remnants of an arms program Iraq had rushed into production in the 1980s during the Iran-Iraq war.

            All had been manufactured BEFORE 1991, participants said. Filthy, rusty or corroded, a large fraction of them could not be readily identified as chemical weapons at all” [EMPHASIS added] No evidence was found of ACTIVE WMD were found. These leftover WMD’s mostly found buried, were unusable and did not represent the threat Clinton and Bush claimed they represented. CLINTON and BUSH LIED when the claimed Iraq had ACTIVE WMD programs and extant WMD that were a “CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER.” Rusty buried WMD presented no danger to America, until we invaded on the pretext of the LIE, and exposed our soldiers to the buried nerve agents and other toxic waste.
            [Minor edits made]

          • Aldous Huxley

            The reason why Dr. Britt and I don’t think that charismatic leadership and effective communication are a defining characteristic of fascism is because they are characteristics of EVERY successful political movement or system. DUH. Sure Spain’s fascists would have been more successful in their evil endeavors if they had a more charismatic leader than Franco, but he made do by making martyrs out of the Falangist leadership. Spain’s fascist did act a lot like other fascists in Germany, Japan, and Italy, minus charismatic leadership and imperialism.

            I LOVE the quote from Nahum chapter 3! Thank you! More on that later.

            “So now you’re trying to say that you weren’t breaking the basic laws of civility by accusing entire continents and their people of being evil. If you cannot tell that that is not civil, you obviously have no definition of the term.”
            –I was not calling entire continents fascists, and you are clearly deliberately misunderstanding and accusing me when you say that. I have drawn a pretty clear distinction between what America should be, and what the Amerika of your fascist friends Bush and Obama has become, and is still becoming. I know you have denounced Obama on the erosion of US civil rights (while hypocritically failing to denounce Bush for the same), support for the Muslim Brotherhood (who are Islamo-fascists, further lending support to my thesis that Obama is a fascist), and his negotiations with Iran. However you have supported Obama on his policies of arming terrorists in Libya and Syria, and regime changing Libya, Syria, Egypt, Tunisia and Ukraine. Moreover you continue to defend Obama as a non-fascist, so I believe I am still being reasonably fair in calling you his friend and supporter. Most Americans do not support Obama or Bush (based on approval ratings). Most Americans, including myself, are anti-fascists. Most of these imperialistic aggressions are being conducted in the shadows, covered up and/or lied about…. Most Americans don’t really know what is going on, they just know that the world is getting less and less safe every year these fascists continue to wage their pre-emptive wars against select ‘dictators and tyrants’ while ignoring or supporting other dictators and tyrants. But you do know what is going on, and you continue to support these LIARS and AGGRESSORS.

            “Here’s what the Bible says IMMEDIATELY AFTER it. “Do all these evildoers know nothing? *They* devour *my people* as though eating bread; they never call on God.”
            The “They” of whom “No one is good; all have turned to evil” are explicitly separated from “my people; the Children of Israel and devout followers of God.”
            –So are you seriously claiming the USA and Israel are God’s chosen nations and can do no evil? Who is intentionally misinterpreting scripture here? God has promised Israel that if they do what is good and right and just he will faithfully reward and prosper them. Likewise He has promised that if they do evil and turn from his laws, that he will cut them down to a stump and send them into exile, as he has faithfully historically done. What are the US and Israel doing but DEVOURING Palestine and Iraq? If you want to support Israel, as I do. You can pray, and you can encourage Israel to do right and good and justice, and then you can trust in God to do the rest. God is in control.

            “Which clearly tells us something. Sin is a constant problem in the mortal world and virtually all people and organizations live with it.”
            –VIRTUALLY? Dear Lord Jesus, I can only hope this wayward child of yours is ONLY excluding YOU, when he says ‘VIRTUALLY.’

            “But that IN NO WAY justifies saying that all people of the Earth are all evil, and that none of them know God.”
            –Just because you may know a tiny bit about God, doesn’t mean you don’t screw up, or that your foreign policies are perfect. Fascists are evil-doers. That’s’ all I’m saying. I gave you a laundry list of reasons, backed up with sources, why I think the USA’s leadership has led us down the road of fascism, but you had nothing to say about that.

            “Which is why accusing someone or something of evil was seen (correctly) as a very grave matter. And why if it was done falsely it was a very grave offense indeed. Whether at the time the Psalms were compiled, or today when you are trying to say you were perfectly civil while calling a huge swath of the world evil merely for where they live.”
            –You are the one demonizing all of Iran and Russia. Not me. I’m judging based on actions.

            “There is no sin at pointing one’s hand out and identifying an evil empire where there actually is one (though at wildly accusing it is another thing)… Nahum pointed at the sins of the Assyrian Empire without reproach.”
            –agreed.

            Regarding this excellent definition of what is an Evil Empire take from Nahum chapter 3:
            “Woe to the city of blood,”
            –Washington DC has gotten us involved in 80% of all wars in the last 100 years, either directly or indirectly supporting one side or the other.
            “full of lies,”
            –As I have educated you on, all of Washington is responsible for having LIED us into TWO WARS IN IRAQ in 1998 and 2003, Benghazi, “you can keep your insurance,” “we’re spreading democracy (when what we are really spreading in Egypt, Libya, Syria and Ukraine is war, bloodshed, chaos destabilization and US appointed puppet dictators chosen by voters from a US pre-approved list of candidates). Washington DC is the Capital City of LIES.
            “full of plunder,”
            –colonialism was the original means for bringing the ‘plunder’ back to the West. When that failed, globalist corporatist exploitation and IMF loans were employed to exploit the developing world, and food aid ‘dumping’ to destroy local agriculture markets, was used to help maintain poverty in Africa and Southeast Asia. Now any country that has begun to claw its way out of poverty is simply targeted for regime change. The fascists in charge don’t want the rest of the world to be rich enough to be middle class consumers, and compete with us for resources.

            “never without victims!”
            –Washington DC’s endless wars… Vietnam, Cambodia, Serbia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya…. Not to mention the endless Drone War.

            “The crack of whips,”
            –Well , fortunately at least we’ve abolished slavery, or have we? The US has the largest percentage of its population in jail of country on Earth, thanks to the ‘war on drugs’ and mandatory minimum sentencing. Use of Prison Labor is growing.

            “the clatter of wheels, galloping horses and jolting chariots! Charging cavalry, flashing swords and glittering spears!”
            –The militaristic USA spends more on defense spending than the next 8 national economies combined.
            “Many casualties, piles of dead, bodies without number, people stumbling over the corpses—“
            –Sounds like the aftermath of our endless wars to me.
            “all because of the wanton lust of a prostitute,”
            –sounds like an apt description of country that has been in bed with dictators like Saddam Hussein (back in the 1980’s when we were abusing Iraq as our proxy against Iran and Russia), Franklin D. Roosevelt coddled of Nicaraguan dictator Anastasio Somoza, “Ronald Reagan… genuinely cherished the Marcoses. In 1969, Governor and Mrs. Reagan visited Manila, where Imelda’s opulent parties dazzled them.” … the list goes on and on… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_authoritarian_regimes_supported_by_the_United_States
            “alluring, the mistress of sorceries, who enslaved nations by her prostitution and peoples by her witchcraft.”
            –Definitely an apt description for what Amerika has become, dazzling the nations with allure of materialism, the bright Hollywood lights, and our fast food ‘cultural’ exports. We create the illusion of having enriched our vassal states whom we are in bed with, like Germany, Japan, and S. Korea, by creating massive debt bubbles. But who is going to pay all that debt back? I hear cracking whips in our future.
            “Such is God’s verdict to evil empires. Actual Evil Empires.”
            –Amen.
            “Let’s start with “breaking the Budapest Memorandum”
            –Let’s start with Ronald and George Bush promising not to Gorbachev and Yeltsin not to expand into Eastern Europe, and then breaking that promise by expanding into Poland, Latvia, Lithuania,, Estonia, The Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, Serbia (by force of arms), Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania, and Georgia into the EU or NATO or both. And while we are talking of broken treaties, how many treaties did the US break with the Indians? http://broken-treaties-opportunity-race.tumblr.com/

            “cutting short its’ own promised election in the supposedly liberated land by one day, during which it was declared annexed before the votes were meant to be finished.”
            –meanwhile look up how Bush ‘stole’ the 2004 elections and Obama ‘stole’ the 2012 elections. Better yet look into how the whole US elections system is rigged thru gerrymandering, corporate owned media biases is being used to manufacture consensus thru breeding ignorance of the truth, unlimited black money campaign contribution thanks to Citizen’s United, and massively anti-private, intrusive, 2 Party-owned databases of voters political habits being used to manipulate the vote thru ‘ground games.’ I’m not defending Russia or Putin. I’m just pointing out that the USA is not much better, and I have to take responsibility for my country, where I vote and pay taxes, first and foremost. Get out of your old Cold War mindset old man. Russia is not the USSR and this is not Eisenhower’s America anymore.

          • Turtler

            “The reason why Dr. Britt and I don’t think that charismatic leadership
            and effective communication are a defining characteristic of fascism is
            because they are characteristics of EVERY successful political movement
            or system.”

            Once again, mistating and ignorance.

            For starters: I never claimed that charistmatic and effective leadership were essential for a Fascist, or that that was what constituted it. But a Fascist leader’s concept of themselves, their role,a nd their government does. As does how they project it.

            Secondly: several effective political movements and organizations have done without charismatic leadership or effective communication. Most political machines do not have charismatic leaders; Mayor Daley’s Chicago Machine got by with someone who was viewed as a bit of a buffoon by his own side and who was not photogenic. And who still kept the city under an iron grip for decades.

            Austrian Social Christian dictatorship ( so called Austrofascists, but who were more like Francoists aping Mussolini’s Fascists) had a government that famously did not inspire enthusiasm from those loyal to it or loyalty from those who were in the undecided or even somewhat favorably inclined. Its’ leader was so uncharismatic that he was used as shorthand for coffee orders in Vienna (Ordering a “Dollfuss” = “Ordering a short, black coffee.”). They relied on Mussolini for support. But they managed to fight Austria’s modern civil war, defeat the social democrats, and stay in power for over a decade in the face of opposition from most corners.

            And for an actual Fascist movement that qualifies, look no further than one of the most infamous bywords in history. Vidkun Quisling himself and the Nasjonal Samling party in Norway. Vidkun Quisling had some inspiring traits (as he showed in his WWI/post-WWI career and how he risked storming into an unsecured Oslo’s radio station), but he was not truly charismatic. His speeches were lukewarm, his writing and rhetoric were scarcely viewed as it, and he was unable to unite even his small Fascist party, who were normally his adherents.

            Which was why the Nasjonal Samling had practically self-destructed from internal quibbling years before Quisling met Hitler to plan a simultaneous coup-invasion of Norway. But it succeeded because of the German invasion, and on some level Quisling’s bravery at Oslo impressing (even if grudgingly) Hitler and the occupation authorities.

            So it is safe to rule out Quisling or his movement as being effective communicators or possessing charismatic leadership; their success (such as it is) was through other means. But there is virtually nobody who would not count it as a Fascist movement in spite of Quisling’s ineptitude. And that includes me.

            Why?

            It’s not because of his failures in speaking or writing. It’s because of *what he wrote and why*, as well as his other actions.

            Quisling saw his position of Forer as a unique, integral role in Norwegian culture. One that was meant to serve as a role beyond the personal as a focal point of Norwegian culture, racial identity, and sovereignty as a focus rather than an office. He defined his party as a revolutionary fusion of the Left wings and Right Wings, and which was seeking a Norway that was militarily and politically strong, and completely devoid of democratic party politics, capitalist business, and Marxist international socialism.A transformation that would require shattering the old political and economic elites to build it up anew. He romanticized the Pagan past while denigrating the Abrahamic religions as being unfit for a truly advanced people or culture. And he emphasized an all encompassing, totalitarian state that would become impossible to differentiate from the nation, culture, or race. United around him and all future Forers.

            All of this demonstrates that Quisling actually studied and agreed with the Fascist and Nazi canon, and did so quite adroitly. Which probably goes some ways to explaining why he kept soldiering on as Forer even after it became painfully obvious he was one of the least fit people possible for it. And that everybody knew it, and he would gain little to no actual benefit from either the office or his alliance with Germany.

            Compare/contrast that to Franco. Franco did not see the office of Caudillo that he occupied as being some integral part of Spain or its’ identity. Which is why he supported the transition of leadership to something completely different when he died (though he could not have forseen the King’s restoration of a Constitutional Monarchy). He opportunistically made alliances with Fascist powers and parties and then broke them when convenient. He supported the established landowners and the established Christian Church against Fascist and Socialist radicals and populists. He did not employ mass mobilization of the populace outside of the civil war. He defined himself as purely a man of the Right rather than any kind of “Third Way”. And as a reactionary bringing things back to the golden age than a revolutionary.

            It is those sorts of criteria that links a weak, marginal, and ineffectively led/communicating Fascist party with its’ strong, totalitarian, and charismatic brethren. And separates it from other strong, bloodthirsty dictatorships.

            If you cannot understand that, then you cannot understand much.

          • Aldous Huxley

            “Once again, you don’t know jack about what Fascism or a Fascist actually is.”
            –Says the idiot that refuses to give a definition of fascism, other than to say that it is whatever Hitler and Mussolini say it is. This, despite the fact that they both had very different definitions of fascism and opposed each other’s views… And even more ridiculously, as if they are the only fascists in world history.

            “A lot of those who appeased or defended Hitler and Mussolini’s ACTUAL Fascist expansion were not Fascist (unless you want to argue that the likes of Chamberlain or the Left coalition in France were so).”
            –There is a big difference between your full throated defense/apologia for Amerika’s neofascism and Chamberlain’s condemnation but appeasement of Hitler’s classic fascist hubristic imperialism. Regarding the Anschluss, Chamberlain said “our Ambassador in Berlin registered a protest in strong terms with the German Government against such use of coercion, backed by force, against an independent State in order to create a situation incompatible with its national independence.” Note that I am not defending his appeasement, merely pointing out that you are fascist to offer full throated defence of Amerika’s putsch against Yanukovich, and hubristic installation of a bought and owned puppet government in Ukraine.

            “Sure. But that does not make a Fascist.”
            –I never said Chamberlain or the Left coalition in France were fascists. That was your idiotic deliberate weaseling rewrite of what I said. I agree with you Chamberlain was a morally compromised fool, and so are you.

            “Over half of the Donbas is strictly loyalist. The separatists have never had more than a third to half of it even at their maximum extent, which is not now. Are they supposed to be surrendered to the wolves of a dictatorship they CLEARLY do not want?”
            –a percentages argument???? Really??! I thought you were smarter than this. Your argument applies perfectly in reverse to West Ukraine. Some percentage of people there does not wish to become EU citizens, and can move to Russian Donbas when the dust settles. Those in Donbas who do not wish to become Russian can more to West Ukraine.

            “As for Crimea itself, if it were really that popular (and Crimea is by far the most Russophile part of Ukrainian territory), WHY THE HELL did Vladimir Putin feel the need to invade it with Russian government troops.”
            –I don’t know and don’t care WHY. It WAS a popular move in Crimea and kept blood from being spilt there.

            “… then sabotage his own vote by declaring annexation before it was done*?”
            –all politicians declare victory in polls before the final counts are in. No big deal as long as the final count matches the declaration.

            “If the Crimean population (except the Crimean Tartars obviously; they want to be Ukrainian) wanted to be Russian that badly, why did Putin feel the need to occupy them rather than just do provacateurship safe in the knowledge that he could easily rush in troops at any time from Sebastopol? [SIC]”
            –He did it that way because he is a classic fascist and that’s how classic fascists operate. Neo-fascists like Amerika, on the other hand like to do their annexing more underhanded, hidden ways regardless of how many massacres (Union Trade Hall), false flag sniper operations, and illegal bloody destructive street rebellions (Maidan) are required.

            “It’s called SELF-determination. Not Russian-Terrorist-Mandated-Determination Not Putin-determination. Self.”
            –Quite a lot of people from Donbass are fighting for the right to self determination, and are glad for Putin’s help defending their homes against the Western/NATO/UA aggressors.

            –Mayor Daley’s successful Machine did have a charismatic and communicative face in spokeswoman Jackie Heard.

            Dollfuss was not successful. He was assassinated by the Nazi’s after 2 years in power and his deputy only managed to hang on to power for a few years, by being propped up by Mussolini and ultimately lost his country to the Party that murdered his boss.

            Quisling was not successful. He was universally hated. He only managed to survive in power for a few year thru the utmost extremes of brutality, and with significant Nazi German assistance.

            You are WRONG. My assertion that “charismatic leadership and effective communication are a defining characteristic of fascism is because they are characteristics of EVERY successful political movement or system” still stands, and denying it is really quite silly of you.

            First you asserted Franco was not a fascist because “He was not much of a speaker (partially because of his voice pitch), he was not much of a writer. And certainly not a philosophical one.” I responded by saying “charismatic leadership and effective COMMUNICATION are a defining characteristic of fascism” [EMPHASIS added] to which you responded by saying “I never claimed that charistmatic [SIC] and effective leadership were essential for a Fascist, or that that was what constituted it.” HOLY WEASELING BATMAN!!!! Give up you pathetic weasel.

            You screwed up when you failed to give any valid reasons why Dr. Britt’s 14 characteristics aren’t a good definition of fascism (even if Franco and Suharto aren’t classic fascists, the 14 characteristics still apply to the regimes you are admit were fascist).

            You were idiotic to assert that I was calling all Americans fascists (and the whole western world) when you knew I was an American who opposed fascism.

            You were stupid to assert that you must automatically be and anti-fascist just because your father was.

            You appear to have conceded the point the Amerika is an evil empire (quoting Nahum Chapter 3 was a perfect gift! Thanks again!). thanks for admitting you were wrong…. Oops you are too cowardly to do that.

            You screwed up when you falsely claimed Bush didn’t lie us into war in Iraq. you are to much of a coward to even debate that.
            You screwed up when you refused to have a civil debate, and insisted on engaging in ad-hominems, proving yourself to be a typical fascist thug.
            You screwed up when you insisted on a definition for fascism and I gave you several and then you ran away from that debate, while hypocritically accusing me of being a coward.
            You screwed up when you insisted that Ukraine’s current Civil War is better for Ukraine than Finland style neutrality would be.
            You screwed up when you claimed Ukraine was seeking independence, when Ukraine is clearly seeking to surrender its independence to Brussels.

            Conclusion:
            Listen, you are a very talented writer and debater. You have turned out some well written responses in tiny amounts of time. You kicked my ass on the Finland point. You are extremely knowledgeable about European history… I wish I had half your store of knowledge and a quarter your talent as a writer. I’m just a simple engineer. But despite your talent and knowledge, you have made an enormous number of mistakes, and the reason for that is simple. You’re wrong, and the position you are defending is utterly untenable. But…

            Keep on offering apologia for your disgusting fascist position.

            Keep on defending evil, imperial hubris.

            The more you weasel back and forth, the deeper you dig your hole. Keep it up pig!

          • Aldous Huxley

            Bush, Obama, and you write books… you all must be Mussolini style fascists. your buddies in Azov battalion have not written books… they must be mostly Franco/Pinochet style fascists.

          • Aldous Huxley

            I added a point to my ‘Why America is fascists’ list today. I think you’ll like this one:

            — the abortion holocaust, Sanger and eugenics (i.e. http://creation.com/margaret-sanger-christianity-today),

          • Aldous Huxley

            Defending the US/EU’s fascist expansionism into Eastern Europe, Asia and the Middle East makes you a fascist too.

            If the people of central and western Ukraine wish to surrender their sovereignty to Brussels, they simply have to accept the the people of Donbass and Crimea, do not wish to do so… Its called self-determination. Get used to it.

          • Turtler

            “Defending the US/EU’s fascist expansionism into Eastern Europe, Asia and the Middle East makes you a fascist too.”

            Once again, you don’t know jack about what Fascism or a Fascist actually is. Even by your own inane definition, that is pretty damn stupid. A lot of those who appeased or defended Hitler and Mussolini’s ACTUAL Fascist expansion were not Fascist (unless you want to argue that the likes of Chamberlain or the Left coalition in France were so).

            Fools? Yes. Morally compromised? Sure. But that does not make a Fascist.

            “If the people of central and western Ukraine wish to surrender their
            sovereignty to Brussels, they simply have to accept the the people of
            Donbass and Crimea, do not wish to do so…”

            Why would anybody do so when it’s clear that Russia nad the people of those regions don’t?

            Over half of the Donbas is strictly loyalist. The separatists have never had more than a third to half of it even at their maximum extent, which is not now. Are they supposed to be surrendered to the wolves of a dictatorship they CLEARLY do not want?

            As for Crimea itself, if it were really that popular (and Crimea is by far the most Russophile part of Ukrainian territory), WHY THE HELL did Vladimir Putin feel the need to invade it with Russian government troops, *lie that he was doing so*, host a legally and morally compromised vote, *and then sabotage his own vote by declaring annexaiton before it was done*?

            And don’t even TRY to deny those weren’t Russian soldiers or Putin’s wills. Even he admitted it.

            If the Crimean population (except the Crimean Tartars obviously; they want to be Ukrainian) wanted to be Russian that badly, why did Putin feel the need to occupy them rather than just do provacateurship safe in the knowledge that he could easily rush in troops at any time from Sebastopol?

            “Its called self-determination. Get used to it.”

            I am used to it. The moron I am typing to obviously isn’t.

            It’s called SELF-determination. Not Russian-Terrorist-Mandated-Determination Not Putin-determination. Self.

            Get that through your thick, stupid skull.

          • LorCanada

            You are incorrect. Perhaps you have not heard of “democracy” yet? It seems foreign to you. See this information:

            RE: NULAND — from The Guardian comment section:

            5 billion since 1991 is not that much. Here is what Nuland said: ” Since Ukraine’s independence in 1991 the United States have supported Ukrainians to build democratic skills and institutions as they promote civic participation and good governance, all of which are pre-conditions for Ukraine to achieve the European aspirations. We have invested over 5 billion dollars to assist Ukraine in these goals that will ensure a secure and prosperous democratic Ukraine.”
            Those who did not study English well in school, study now and stop spreading false information.

          • Aldous Huxley

            1) $227 million per year buys a lot of votes in a little, cash starved country like Ukraine.

            2) the $5 billion was JUST the NED $$$. Also US AID, IRI, Soro’s OSI, the CIA, and the EU spy agencies also had their own CASH funds they were kicking in, on top of the NED’s CASH.

            3) I’ll tell you what “supporting Ukrainians to build democratic skills and institutions as they promote civic participation and good governance” is NOT: using foreign money to build up select political parties, run ‘get out the vote drives’ among targeted pro-EU voters, illegally occupying government buildings, encouraging street violence, illegally overthrowing the democratically elected government, and letting a foreign government pick and choose who will, and who will not be in the government. When Vicky Nuland says she ‘supports Ukrainian democracy,’ that is Orwellian double speak. What they are really doing is the opposite of democracy. Real democracy is always endemic, never foreign backed (let alone foreign bought and run)!

          • LorCanada

            Ukraine had the choice of accepting $15 billion from Putin OR of aligning with the West. They chose the West. Russia is under a dictatorship, controlled by Mafia Putin and his gang. Is that really better than what the West offered? I don’t think so. Why is Putin so afraid of democracy that he must cause war against Ukraine to prevent it from growing as an independent nation? Power does indeed hold Putin in its grasp.

          • Aldous Huxley

            1) Ukraine is not seeking independence. they are seeking to give up their independence to join the EU. No EU nation is truly sovereign – they must take orders from Brussels. Despite all the Russian and US meddling, Ukraine has been more independent since 1991 than they will be if they join the EU. That you think Ukraine is seeking independence, which they supposedly got in 1991, shows that you are utterly steeped in false propaganda. Freed your mind!!!!

            2) We already have discussed that Ukraine is heading AWAY from democracy, not towards it, but you are still stuck in your false narrative.

            3) Here is what Putin is really afraid of, and rightly so:

            a) If Ukraine joins the EU it will choke of trade routes for Russian gas and grain exports, which pass thru just to spite Russia.

            b) it will join in the EU’s punitive sanctions regime and embargo Russia – they will lose its important trade partner Ukraine, perhaps permanently.

            c) Ukraine will first join the EU then join NATO, then station nuclear weapons in Ukraine and build nuclear missile defenses that will allow NATO to conduct a ‘successful’ nuclear first strike against Moscow, obliterating MADD nuclear war deterrence.

            d) that emboldened by another ‘successful’ regime change in Ukraine, NATO will then launch more regime change operations in Belarus, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Mongolia, and ultimately Russia (many of which it has already tried once and failed but will certainly try again). These regime change operations will leave Russia’s neighbors in chaos and destabilized just as NATO’s evil regime change operations have already left Ukraine, Libya, Egypt, and Syria in chaos. and that ultimately Russia will be surrounded, cut off, and economically strangled just as the US / EU / NATO powers have done to N. Korea and Cuba.

          • Aldous Huxley

            1) $227 million per year buys a lot of votes in a little, cash starved country like Ukraine.

            2) the $5 billion was JUST the NED $$$. Also US AID, IRI, Soro’s OSI, the CIA, and the EU spy agencies also had their own CASH funds they were kicking in, on top of the NED’s CASH.

            3) I’ll tell you what “supporting Ukrainians to build democratic skills and institutions as they promote civic participation and good governance” is NOT: using foreign money to build up select political parties, run ‘get out the vote drives’ among targeted pro-EU voters, illegally occupying government buildings, encouraging street violence, illegally overthrowing the democratically elected government, and letting a foreign government pick and choose who will, and who will not be in the government. When Vicky Nuland says she ‘supports Ukrainian democracy,’ that is Orwellian double speak. What they are really doing is the opposite of democracy. Real democracy is always endemic, never foreign backed (let alone foreign bought and run)!

          • Aldous Huxley

            P.S. Harper is a fascist too. He is striping away you civic rights, just as Americans and Europeans constitutional rights are being eroded and ignored. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and the leading elites within NATO can get away with anything.

          • LorCanada

            Harper will be replaced in the upcoming election. I agree with you about his taking away our civic rights. He has had his years in office and now it’s time for him to go. It will be an interesting time in October.

      • canuke

        Finland has long dropped any pretext of siding with Russia. They have firmly moved their allegiances westward in the past 20 years. They regularly train and fly with the latest western hardware (F-18 Hornets, for example). They hold joint maneuvers with Sweden and Norway. “Evil Empire”? Then answer me this: as soon as it was humanly possible, every nation that had been subjected to the brotherly love of Russia jumped ship and pinned their futures on the West. That tells me everything I need to know, thank you.

        • Aldous Huxley

          Of course I meant Finland’s pre-1991 style neutrality.

          Why are the jumping from the old empire to the new empire? Because they have long memories and a lack of foresight…. they would cut of their noses to spite their faces they hate russians so much… but they forget the russians who mistreated them are mostly sitting in old-folks homes now.

          • canuke

            Of course they are, but nothing has changed in the Russian mindset…the need to conquer . The need for empire. Putin was but a snotty nosed teenager during the period you elude to. A few years from now, he’ll inhabit the same old folks homes. Doesn’t change a thing.

          • Aldous Huxley

            If Russia ‘needed to conquer’ there is nothing stopping them from re-conquering Tajikistan and the other -stans. You’re wrong. Amerika is the one the ‘needs’ to run around the globe conquering places like Iraq and Afghanistan.

  • Mazepa

    mockal…..mockal…..but we HAVE accomplished quite a bit. Over 13,941 mockal swine have successfully been exterminated. However, there will be many more mockali killed before we decide to let them escape back to mockovshchyna.
    Smert mockalyam.
    Guaranteed.

    • peacemonger

      Did you just pulled that 13,941 out of your a55?
      Maybe you want to talk about the 3000 Ukrainians killed at Debaltseve?

      • canuke

        Please tell me, peacemonger, why Russian military casualties remain a state secret. Why grieving mothers in Russia are threatened or arrested. Why are there mobile crematoria in Donbas to dispose of Russian military corpses. Why so afraid of the Cargo 200 trucks that have crossed back into Russia since the early days of the conflict. Yes, Ukrainian military casualties are tragic, and I fully agree that they must be acknowledged. I have no idea where your 3000 figure comes from, however. Life News, RT, or Sputnik don’t count. I will believe the UN, OSCE, Al Jazeera, the Red Cross, or Doctors without Borders. Please share their data, and not some fanciful figures from your sources.

    • Vyacheslav Polovin

      You are stupid! Your “moskal” kick out ukraine from debaltseve! How is that? Ukrainian so called “army” could not resist against moskals. Why? Tell me?

  • Czech Friend

    “…the war will continue.” That is what the militants want because they
    cannot exist in peacetime: they don’t know how to deal with the social
    and economic challenges of peace, and they don’t want to give up what
    they see as the glory of war.”

    I agree and cannot help but think that at one point at which Putin is satisfied with his land grab yet the dumb terrorists and useful idiots like Zakharchenko still want to fight, at that point he will send his men to clean the area if you know what I mean. And if it slips even a little it could get really interesting.

    Imagine DNR and LNR fighting back against Russia. Sounds crazy? Let’s wait and see…

    • LorCanada

      I’m thinking it’s the Cossacks who are stubborn and ignore everybody while they continue their missile launching and so on.

  • Murf

    Hopefully the President will fire a large part of the General Staff.their antiquated Soviet thinking is killing the nation. The commander of the ATO should have the stones to resign.Also the commander of sector C. and take their staffs with them. Clear thinking amateurs could do a better job.
    A lessen not mentioned was Unity of Command. Very body needs to be under one command structure NO MATTER WHICH DEPARTMENT THEY CAME FROM.
    To many troops from Defense Ministry, Interior Ministry and what not.

  • Aldous Huxley
    • Dirk Smith

      LOL.

      • Aldous Huxley

        Man are you CIA paid trolls easy to spot! When you go to the CCSC to pick up your US taxpayer funded paycheck, don’t forget to leave an apple on Director Frank Cilluffo’s desk!

        • Dirk Smith

          The tinfoil hat Yanukovych crowd must be receiving nice checks from Sputnik International. Never embrace accountability; simply deny and lie. Just like the Greeks and Serbs. Untermenschen..

          • Aldous Huxley

            calling greeks and serbs subhumans… you’re a typical fascist, just like your friends from Maidan.

          • Dirk Smith

            MH17, poisoning of Litvinenko/Yushchenko, Volnovakha, Moscow bombings, Mariupol, downing of Polish government flight in Smolensk, Kramatorsk, invasion of three sovereign countries. And all this under your KGB dwarf’s reign. The only fascists come from Moscow and you support state terrorism. Their day is coming………..

          • Aldous Huxley

            -Experimenting on patients in State Insane Asylums back in the 1930-1960’s

            -California sterilized 20,000 people between 1909 and 1964.

            -100,000 dead civilians in Iraq.

            -firebombing of Dresden in 1944.

            -Lied us into a war with Iraq.

            -Intervened in coups and civil wars in Grenada, El Salvador, Nicaragua, and many more.

            -Supported dictators like Pinochet, and Mubarak for years.

            -Torture at Abu Ghraib

            -Indefinite detention without charges at Bagram

            -Illegally arming terrorists in Libya and Syria

            -the CIA’s ‘heart attack gun’ revealed at the Church Committee hearings

            -3 failed attempts so far to overthrow the Venezuelan government.

            -The US had 800 marines stationed at the Baghdad airport while our puppet, al-Maliki, was running death squads that ethnically cleansed Sunni’s out of Baghdad area.

            -The US supported the fascists from Maidan even after it was proven they committed the Odessa Trade Union Hall massacre.

            -NATO C-130 Hercules landing in Kharkov daily but Obama and Merkel continue to lie to their own people, pretending we are not militarily supporting the fascists of Maidan.

            -The NSA plants Spyware in Computers Around World which ended up enabling International spying, Corporate Espionage, ID theft, and Tax Fraud.

            The side you cheerlead for is just evil man

          • Dirk Smith

            Didn’t know Ukraine did all of that. You appear to have Asperger syndrome like your KGB dwarf. Stay on point, please.

          • Aldous Huxley

            I know you are completely ignorant of the evil things your fascist Ukrainian friends, and their fascist American backers are doing… that is why I provided you that list, so you could educate yourself by googling those FACTS. so stop being a troll for 5 minutes and start googling.

          • Dirk Smith

            Still waiting for your list of state terrorism that Ukraine’s “fascists” and “Kyiv-junta” have committed compared to the Asperger dwarf. Deflecting all conversation and responsibility to evil USA is Putnism 101. Think for change. As you know, but won’t admit, the only fascists reside in Moscow.

          • Aldous Huxley

            I’m glad you finally told me you were waiting for a list of state terrorism that Ukraine’s “fascists” and “Kyiv-junta.” Here is is:

            https://www.facebook.com/UkraineCrisisAntiMaidan/posts/304288363056945

            You are the one who needs to start thinking for a change. there is nothing wrong with the notion that BOTH the USA and Russia (and China too for that matter) are fascist wanna-be empires duking it out for global dominance. the difference is that the USA has 638 overseas bases in over 150 countries and Russia has 3 bases in 3 nearby foreign countries. The USA is new evil global empire and must be stopped, and freedom must be restored, and Russia is doing that job.

          • Dirk Smith

            Aldi, Aldi, once again diverting from Russia’s state terrorism. We’re discussing Ukraine’s “fascist state terrorism” you claim and I only get RT & Sputnik-produced YouTube videos of Ukrainian soccer thugs. Please google ‘Russian national unity party’ or morphadite Pavel Gubarev to see Putin’s monkeys that have invaded another sovereign country. If you want to discuss US invasions vs. muscovite invasion, one only has to compare current-day Japan & Germany vs. Eastern Germany/Chechnya. The US without a doubt has the most military presence in the world, but most of is due to the handiwork of the muscovites. At this point, Putler is no different than ISIL.

          • Aldous Huxley

            Pictures don’t lie. But you do. TROLL.

          • Dirk Smith

            Kramatorsk, Chechen bombings, Volnovakha, MH17, Kursk Submarine, Moscow bombings, Mariupol, Litnvinenko-Yushchenko, invasion of Georgia-Chechnya-Ukraine, 56 journalists murdered during Putler’s reign, TU-154 in Smolensk, etc. The KGB monster doesn’t care if he murders Russians or not; as long as he keeps power and his billions he stole from Ukraine. Unlike you, FACTS not Trolling…. You support STATE TERRORISM.

          • Aldous Huxley

            But Noam Chomsky says the US is the leading sponsor of State Terror… Which means you are supporting STATE TERRORISM!?!??!

            http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/usa-top-terrorist-state/

            Not to mention the US being the worlds top sponsor of fascism:

            http://www.alternet.org/world/35-countries-where-us-has-supported-fascists-druglords-and-terrorists

            lets look at your ‘facts’:

            Kramatorsk: “The strike was aimed at the military headquarters, but the second round of fire hit the residential areas of Kramatorsk,” Poroshenko said. Clearly this was a case of collateral damage during the ongoing civil war.

            Chechen bombings – both sides were guilty of intentionally targeting civilians during the Chechen War. Turn about is fair play.

            Volnovakha – “Ten people were killed and 13 wounded after a Grad multiple rocket launcher firing from separatist-controlled territory hit a passenger bus near a Ukrainian-controlled checkpoint outside the town of Volnovakha, Donetsk Oblast” the target was the military check point… the minibus merely got in the way. But still this was a criminal action, the rebels should have targeted more carefully in a residential area.

            MH17 – We don’t really know who shot this down or if it was intentional. You blaming it all on Putin is an obvious lie.

            Kursk Submarine: was an accident not terrorism “Finally pushing aside the Navy’s long-standing blame on a collision with a foreign vessel, a report issued by the government attributed the disaster to a torpedo explosion caused when high-test peroxide (HTP), a form of highly concentrated hydrogen peroxide, leaked from a faulty weld in the torpedo’s casing.[3][10][23] The report found that the initial explosion destroyed the torpedo room compartment and killed everyone in the first compartment.” Once again you are proven a LIAR.

            Moscow bombings – If Putin really ordered these, as false flag attacks, then he’s definitely a terrorist, but that hasn’t been proven for sure.

            Mariupol,

            Litnvinenko-Yushchenko – these were illegal assassinations of defecting agents, not State Terrorism. Once again you are proven a LIAR.

            invasion of Georgia-Chechnya-Ukraine – these are WARS, not State Terrorism. try again loser.

            56 journalists murdered during Putler’s reign – these were illegal assassinations, not State Terrorism. Once again you are proven a LIAR.

            TU-154 in Smolensk- This was either an illegal assassination of foreign head of state, or an accident, not State Terrorism. Once again you are proven a LIAR.

          • Dirk Smith

            Wow, a true believer. I had no idea that Russia isn’t responsible for ANYTHING. My bad. Lavrov & Yanukovych would be proud of you.

          • Aldous Huxley

            That not what I said at all you PROVEN LIAR.

          • Turtler

            “But Noam Chomsky says the US is the leading sponsor of State Terror… ”
            Noam Chomsky also said that the US had some sort of secret alliance with Nazi Germany in WWII, and that Pol Pot did not commit genocide.
            Because Noam Chomsky was a totalitarian idiot, and so are you.

          • Aldous Huxley

            if he said that, which i doubt, it must have been when he was young and stupid…. anyways 2 mistakes don’t invalidate a life’s work…. each point must be evaluated on its own merits. attacking the messenger only shows you are in the wrong.

          • Turtler

            The arrogance and ignorance you display is galling.

            “if he said that, which i doubt, it must have been when he was young and stupid….”

            Ohhhh. so you ADMIT you don’t kknooooow what this is, but you’re somehow SUUUUUREEE that it was written when he was “young and stupid?” Without a shred of proof?

            Well, I’ve got news for you. Chomsky was always stupid, but he didn’t start compiling this until 1986, and did not publish until 1992. In other words, with only 28 and 22 years left in his 86 year long life. Under what definition THAT qualifies as young eludes me, and so you are already wrong under one point.

            And as for the context, I could flip open the book “What Uncle Sam Really Wants” (yes, I own a copy myself, to my eternal regret) and pick out almost any quote. But it would be a waste of effort. So I will merely direct you to a far more succinct and devastating overview of it by a particularly angry and cynical Israeli, who I disagree with lmost as often as I don’t. But who still can handle this quite well, and brings quotes from the book itself.

            http://antichomsky.blogspot.com/2004/10/what-uncle-sam-really-wants-review.html

            “anyways 2 mistakes don’t invalidate a life’s work…. each point must be evaluated on its own merits.”

            I’ve been around the cesspits of these forums a lot, but this is probably the single most disgusting thing

            Even if we limit ourselves to this:

            “2 Mistakes?’

            Pol Pot killed millions of people in the span of a few years from the time he rose up to the time he died (and no, not just when he took the capitol and power directly). Innocent, real people..

            How many more millions in how short a time would it take for you to admit this as more than one mistake? And during all this time Chomsky denied, defended, and minimized the culpability of the Khmer Rouge without remorse.

            No, That mistake alone is MORE THAN ENOUGH to overshadow one life’s work, even if it was spent far more nobly than Chomsky’s actually was. Chamberlain will never escape Munich- and I think with good reason- even though he acted with a far, far more sympathetic rationale and in a more difficult situation than that. Because there are some acts that do overshadow a life.

            And the truth is that Chomsky did not spend his life nobly. He spent it being an apologist for almost every single anti-American dictatorship, terrorist organization, and tinpot out there. Which brings the death toll up far higher. Even if his breakthroughs in linguistics were so revolutionary (and I do not think they are), there is no justification for that.

            “attacking the messenger only shows you are in the wrong.”

            And now we get into more garden-variety Stupid.

            This is a logical void. A Birkenau concentration camp prisoner could yell and spit and attack Hitler the radio messenger or speaker in the most foul, disgusting terms they wanted. But they would still be right that he was responsible for their misery.

            Attacking the messenger has no effect on the truth of one’s logic, or the falsity of it. The fact that you cannot reason your way out of a wet paper bag will not change that.

            Now get out before I am tempted to flag.

          • canuke

            Listen to yourself. It’s OK from your perspective that they are, “illegal assassinations of defecting agents”, and not State Terrorism. P.L.E.A.S.E, what utter crap. Ask the families of the 57 journalists murdered by the fans of Putin, or sanctioned by him. Why does it matter. And, I don’t follow what the “Yuschenko” comment about illegal assassination is supposed to mean. Last I checked, he was very much alive. Moscow bombings….I’m not holding my breath for V. Putin to admit involvement. Are you? My friend, there is something called circumstantial evidence. If it’s good enough to be accepted in our courts of law, it is all I require to lay responsibility on the doorstep of your beloved Kremlin.

          • Aldous Huxley

            Don’t get me wrong, I’m not defending Putin at all… there is little or no doubt he is a fascist tyrannt. I’m just busy proving
            a) this dirk guy is a lying troll
            b) Bush and Obama ain’t much better than Putin.

            Yuschenko supposedly survived a poisoning attempt.

          • canuke

            Sorry, I do not buy your moral equivalency. Putin and his tactics are pure evil. Yushchenko was poisoned with dioxin. Not supposedly so. Obama is a coward to have stood by and watched Ukraine, a nation which has never threatened anyone, become a victim of a bully superpower wannabe.

          • Aldous Huxley

            Have you seen the CIA’s heart attack gun revealed at the Church Committee hearings? pure evil. name 1 evil thing that the Russia has done, that America has not done more of.

            Putin see’s Amerika as the bully having annexed 12 Eastern European countries into the EU from Poland to Hungary, it its greed Amerika had to regime change and annex Georgia Moldova and Ukraine too. Putin is the one defending against the US bully, and like all bullies Obama is indeed a coward.

          • canuke

            I would love to see your supposed list of 638 overseas bases in over 150 countries. Really? Please list the 150 countries. I was a proud member of NATO countering the only major threat at the time in Europe. As soon as the Soviet Union collapsed, I wonder why every Warsaw Pact country immediately looked the the West and forgot their “Big Brother” to the east. Now they are breathing a sigh of relief that they belong to Europe, whether in the EU, NATO or both. That is why Sweden and Finland regularly work together with the forces of NATO against the new threat from Russia. Understand this: no one is breaking down the door to join with Russia. Perhaps that is why there are only “3 bases in 3 nearby foreign countries”.

          • Aldous Huxley

            here is an interesting discussion about that number of US overseas bases:

            http://libertarianchristians.com/2012/02/13/ron-paul-is-right-about-united-states-overseas-military-bases/

          • canuke

            I enjoyed the first link, Aldous, especially this quote from the article about the so called US overseas bases: “Kessler concludes that “Paul’s statistics barely pass the laugh test. He has managed to turn small contingents of Marine guards into occupying armies and waste dumps into military bases. A more accurate way to treat this data would be to say that the United States has 20 major bases around the world, not counting the war in Afghanistan, with major concentrations of troops in 11 countries.” Enough said.

          • Aldous Huxley

            Yes, I’m well aware of Kessler’s dissenting opinion that I gave you. Regardless of your definition of what constitutes a ‘major’ base and which are minor, the fact remains:

            “According to the Department of Defense, the U.S. deployed 172,966 active duty military personnel to over 150 countries in 2012. And that’s excluding those deployed in Afghanistan for direct combat operations.”

            Compared to i think about 12,000 or so for Russia.

            because the US / NATO are a military EMPIRE.

            Here’s another fun link:
            http://trumanproject.org/doctrine-blog/5-under-the-radar-places-american-troops-are-stationed/

          • Aldous Huxley

            -Keep denying that you lost 3000 guys at Debaltseve.

            -Keep supporting the Lie that Ukraine is not receiving weapons from NATO on all those flights landing in Kharkov.

            -keep avoiding accountability for the disastrous results of the US backed covert regime change program you support…

            The truth will set you free and lies will make you their slave…. its your choice. you have clearly chosen to be a slave.

          • canuke

            And perhaps you need to give your head a shake the next time you and the rest of the Kremlin troll army deny that Russia is involved directly in Ukraine. That is why the banana republics of the LNR/DNR have endless supplies of the most modern Russian weaponry. Weaponry that has not been supplied to anyone else but the Russian military. Where are the weapons on the Ukrainian side? I have not heard of a single Javelin anti-tank system, not a single A-10 tank buster, not a single Abrams tank. Any one of these systems would have decimated the columns of Russian military that streamed across the border of Ukraine, and had them scurrying back where they belong. Where are all of these NATO supplied weapons? Why do we hear calls from the Ukrainian side continually for release of defensive weapons? If they were arriving like you say, there wouldn’t need to be such frantic efforts on the part of Ukraine to obtain a game levelling influx of modern defensive hardware.

          • Aldous Huxley

            Obama is too scared of causing a world war to send anything that might be traced back to the US. He’s sending old second hand junk weaponry to his Ukrainian cannon fodder.

          • canuke

            Again, hogwash. Please show us the weaponry sent to Ukraine by the US, be it new, or be it old. I have seen nothing but old Soviet weaponry. Please show us US weaponry.

          • Aldous Huxley
  • Vyacheslav Polovin

    MOst information this site uses is NOT TRUE! Those are no FACTUAL information therefore it is hard to believe teh rest of ukrainina sources whther they say truth at all. That is why ukraine defeated! BEcause they never admit what happens. And they will be defeated because they NEVER stop doing it.

  • Mazepa

    Precision nuclear strikes on st Petersburg and Moscow will take place.
    Even Obama will not save putin and the stupid mockali.
    Smert mockalyam.
    Guaranteed.