Ukrainian journalist ponders over historical similarities to “DNR/LNR” and eventual solutions

Self-proclaimed "DNR"/"LNR" leaders Zakharchenko and Plotnytsky
Political caricature by Oleksiy Kustovsky for Radio Liberty 

International, More, Ukraine, War in the Donbas

Article by: Vakhtang Kipiani – Ukrainian journalist, essayist, historian
When discussing Crimea and Eastern Ukraine, we should definitely consider other nuances in the development of past world history.

When France left Algeria in 1962 and Tunisia and Morocco in 1952, it was forced to take in a million “of its own people”, the so-called “pieds-noirs”.

After the Second World War, Germany took in all the Germans from Eastern Europe, and Poland almost all the Poles from the Ukrainian SSR. Nobody asked these people where they wanted to go….

So, we Ukrainians must search for a formula that would make Russia welcome “all those that it tamed”.

“Citizens of the DNR and LNR” who do not want to live in Ukraine – primarily members of military units and their families – should be assembled and told to leave Ukraine.

Don’t let the door hit you on the way out! And… good riddance!

Translated by: Christine Chraibi

Source: Ukrainian.co.ua

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Comments

  1. Avatar RedSquareMaidan says:

    Unfortunately with the Russki Mir ideology that likely won’t happen. Unlike France or Poland, Russians are taught: Where there are Russians, it is Russia.

  2. Avatar Brent says:

    Excellent point. These traitors to the nation they live in do not deserve to live in the future reunified Ukraine. They are Russians and should move to live more directly under Putin’s Kremlin Mafia like all the other stooges that support his tyrannical rule

    1. Avatar Dagwood Bumstead says:

      If Kyiv has any sense it should declare anyone in the Donbas and Crimea who had a Dwarfstanian passport on 1/1/2014 persona non grata and give him/her 3 months to move to Pedo Putolini’s Land of Milk and Honey. They clearly were 5th columnists.
      Furthermore the Crimea should be declared Out Of Bouds to all citizens of Dwarfstan forever. It goes without saying that the presence of Dwarfstan’s armed forces will not be tolerated. As the dwarf himself annulled the treaty concerning the use of Sevastopol by the Dwarfstanian navy Dwarfstan cannot appeal to it.

      1. Avatar туфтуф says:

        Russian forces presence in Crimea are ALREADY not tolerated. You ppl constantly mix intl law with the situation on the ground. Let me impart a word to the wise: when the West “liberates” Tibet, that will be the day of the librration of Crimea. All the rest are empty words of useless theoteticians.

        1. Avatar Alex George says:

          The Russian forces in Crimea are only there until they are not. Russia can’t afford it and will eventually vacate. They have only been there a short time, and whether it takes 1 year or more, they will leave.

          And yes, international law does have relevance – nobody recognises Russia’s annexation of Crimea, except a few other pariah states like North Korea.

          1. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Oh, thats good then. Will leave sometime by themselves. No need for war. Chinese investments in Crimea will belong to Ukraine without a war. Excellent development, thank you for enlightening me…lol

          2. Avatar Alex George says:

            Exactly – why fight a war when one doesn’t have to. Ukraine and the west will maintain the pressure on Russia and it will move out of both Donbas and Crimea.

            China invests billions in Ukraine each year. If there are any Chinese investments in Crimea they are minimal, but they and all the Russian investments will eventually belong to Crimea. Th emain prolbem is all the money Ukraine is going to have to spend to fix the Russian mess – Russia has ben a hopeless adminstrator in Crimea.

          3. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Yes!!! Ura!!! I am in and prepared to wait 3 centuries, cus l hate wars. I have just decided to live till zTibet is liberated by the mighty Ukraine too. In the mean time l hope China will not be able to afford Tibet (although it was able to afford it long time before it become the world’s leading economy). The most important thing is that theres no necessity for military actions in either case.

          4. Avatar Alex George says:

            No not three centuries, months or maybe a year or two at most.

            The Russian economy is imploding rapidly. They are running out of reserves, they are not paying their soldiers, they are not upgrading or even maintaining their equipment.

            The effects can be seen in the Donbas now. Soldiers fighting each other, fragging their officers, heavy drinking and drug use, and frequent desertions.

            Its not going to take long at all.

          5. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Chinas economy was in tatters when it invaded Tibet. Economy is important, but not crucial.

          6. Avatar Alex George says:

            Economy is everything. No economy, no military. As Russia finding out .

          7. Avatar туфтуф says:

            And China’s economy during the invasion of Tibet?

          8. Avatar Alex George says:

            Far better than Russia’s now.

          9. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Oops my mistake. I tot the Chinese were dying of hunger in those days. Russia hasnt yet sunk that far.

          10. Avatar Alex George says:

            You obviously have no idea about either the Chinese economy then or Russia’s now.

            More to the point, you are just running away from the truth that Russia has no right to Crimea and no means of keeping it. Maintaining an army and government in Crimea is bleeding Russia dry. So it will give Crimea back regardless, yet be much poorer for it

          11. Avatar туфтуф says:

            I know P has no money. He spent it all on election processes world wide. After all, he s just a one man band. Let others do his work a little. Lolz

          12. Avatar Alex George says:

            Yes, yes, you are just running away from the truth that Russia has no right to Crimea and no means of keeping it.

            Maintaining an army and government in Crimea is bleeding Russia dry. So it will give Crimea back regardless, yet be much poorer

          13. Avatar туфтуф says:

            And in Syria? Can they afford to keep the 2 permanent based there? Or they will have togive them over to Ukraine as well? Ukraine has no fleet. They wld have to swim all the way. Or hitch hike a Romanian sub. But Romania chickened out. Afraid of Russian missiles. I think Russian missile fear is exgagerated. But it WORKS.

          14. Avatar Alex George says:

            Why on earth would Ukraine want anything in Syria? Now you are just babbling again.

            And no, nobody is afraid of Russian missiles. Nukes are irrelevant to situations like this.

          15. Avatar туфтуф says:

            I agree Russia has no rights. But powerful countries USURP rights. China and Tibet, remember?

          16. Avatar Alex George says:

            Russia can attempt to usurp whatever rights it wants. That doesn’t change the fact that Russia has no right to Crimea and no means of keeping it. Maintaining an army and government in Crimea is bleeding Russia dry. So it will give Crimea back regardless, yet be much poorer for it

          17. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Interesting philosophy if the losers.

          18. Avatar туфтуф says:

            But who will look after the ppl of Crimea? The ultras will kill them all plus Russia has sophisticated weapon systems where by it controls the Med. Plus nuclear missile systems which if they fall in.ultras hands, maybe a danger to the whole world. Therefore it is better that Russian army stays in Crimea cus they are more responsible and safety conscious. Plus if ukros ask for 2 Russian bases in Syria, the world is ducked.

          19. Avatar Alex George says:

            “The ultras will kill them all ”

            You are a complete frootloop.

            No, Russia doesn’t control the Med, and if it wants its nukes it had better remove them.

          20. Avatar туфтуф says:

            It does. A bird cannot fly over it without Russias written permission. Plus the bases in Syria. As regards the ppl of Crimea, most are ethnic Russians who are considered traitors on account of the referendum and lack of resistance to Russian occupation. Rivers of blood wld flow, like in Donbass. That is why giving Crimea to Ukroland is not a viable option.

          21. Avatar Alex George says:

            Birds, planes and everything else flies over the Med without Russia having any say in it.

            People in Crimea or eastern Ukraine being “ethnic Russian” doesn’t help your argument at all – they are the very people who dislike Putin the most.

            Russian-speaking people are the ones who fight most strongly against being dominated by the Kremlin.

            And no,there were no rivers of blood in the Donbas – except where Russian soldiers and separatists killed civilians. Crimea is Ukrainian and always wil be. The people there yearn to be free of the Russian knout.

          22. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Have you heard of Glonas? And the mini space dust satellites? They have primarily military use. So has the equipment in Crimea. And in Syria. Russia simply cnt afford not to keep Crimea cus of its strategic importance. Thats why it is not viable to give it back to Ukraine.

          23. Avatar Alex George says:

            Its the other way around – Russia cannot afford to keep Crimea.

            Very foolish of Putin to go annexing a territory and building infrastructure there which he cannot keep. But then, he will go down in history as one of the most incompetent Tsars.

          24. Avatar туфтуф says:

            But it MUST. I explained to you why. If protoukros gain foothold in Syria or Crimea, being mostly ultras, they wld pose a major security risk to the civilised world. Thats why they not only will not get Crimes, Syria (and Tibet-lolz), but will be forced to self destruct. Poles, l hear, are ready. Romania chickened out. There are 300 Balts at the ready too. The rest are washing dishes in London.

          25. Avatar Alex George says:

            As I told you, Russia cannot afford to keep Crimea.

            Russia has far greater things to worry about than security risks. It will hand Crimea bakc and try desperately to avoid breaking up.

          26. Avatar туфтуф says:

            You are badly wrong. There is a common misconception in the West that when P was elected, it was a triumph of democracy. In reality, it was a Kgb putsch. A country run by an intelligence agency is ALL about security. Internal and external. For example, belonging to the racist org like Right sector, responsible for murders of civilians in what was Ukraine, can be a way of visiting Siberia free of charge. Internal control and externally, unrivalled power. Thats what Russias all about.

          27. Avatar Alex George says:

            Ha ha, so now we see that not only do you not know what is going on in Russia, you don’t know what the West thinks either.

            As I told you, Russia cannot afford to keep Crimea.

            Russia has far greater things to worry about than security risks. It will hand Crimea back and try desperately to avoid breaking up.

          28. Avatar туфтуф says:

            We just wait then. Tibet has been waiting 70 yrs. And l bet will wait 70 more. Crimea can do the same. It is iirrelevant how long one waits, the end result matters. Ukraine will not attack Crimea, otherwise it wld hae done it long ago. I say no moe blood shead.

          29. Avatar Alex George says:

            Sure we wait, perhaps till the end of the year, perhaps until next year, but no longer.

            Ukraine doesn’t need to attack Crimea – it knows it will get it back anyway. And the weak Russian army is incapable of attacking Ukraine.

          30. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Empty hopes? Ukro ultras would kill all Crimeans cus they consider themselves Russian. And Nato wld straiight away build a base there. These are serious reasons why Crimea and Donbass will never be part of Ukraine again.

          31. Avatar Alex George says:

            “Ukro ultras would kill all Crimeans ”

            You have just shown yourself to be a complete moron with statements like that.

            “And Nato wld straiight away build a base there.”

            Sure, just like it has built a base in Ukraine – oh wait, it hasn’t.

            There are serious reasons why Crimea and Donbas will never be part of Russia again.

          32. Avatar туфтуф says:

            All true.

    2. Avatar туфтуф says:

      Zaharchenko said yesterday that he wants the whole of Ukraine. Can they still be called separatists, or do we need to adjust the terminology in order to better reflect reality?

      1. Avatar Alex George says:

        I agree – “deluded” is a far better term.

        Zacharchenko knows that the LNR and DPR are doomed, but he has no other choice except to keep the charade going. Russia is never going to be able to take more of the Donbas than it has now, and its only a matter of time before it drops its support for the enclaves.

        1. Avatar туфтуф says:

          Deluded he might be, but not a separatist since he wants Ukraine as a whole. Lingo needs adjustment.

          1. Avatar Alex George says:

            No, he;s just a separatist, i.e. a Russian officer acting like a Ukrainian.

            I can say that I want the whole of France, and it has as much meaning as him saying he wants any more of Ukraine.

          2. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Separatist who wants the whole of a country is no separ at all. OMG, elementary defiitions l have to teach. One of ur friends says that a bigger land can be part of a smaller 1. A society of the slow ones.

          3. Avatar Alex George says:

            You obviously didn’t read my post. No, he’s just a separatist, i.e. a Russian officer acting like a Ukrainian.

            I can say that I want the whole of France, and it has as much meaning as him saying he wants any more of Ukraine, because it will never happen. And he knows that.

          4. Avatar туфтуф says:

            He is a pure blooded Ukrainian.

          5. Avatar Alex George says:

            Nobody knows what his blood is, nor do they care. He is a traitor who has no future in Ukraine, and he knows it.

          6. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Being Ukrainian, it gives him certain rights, supported by the power of Russian army.

          7. Avatar Alex George says:

            Traitors have no rights except to a fair trial and life in prison. If he wanted a better deal than that, he should have trusted in a better army than the Russian one.

          8. Avatar туфтуф says:

            They say Poles are good. They beat Russia in the past. Maybe they can, with the help of 300 Balts do it again? Ukros are useless, especially since the tractor drivers of Donbass destroyed their entire airforce.

          9. Avatar Alex George says:

            Except that the facts show the real value of the Russian army. It tried to raise insurrection right across eastern Ukraine, from Kharkiv to Odesa, and failed. It tried to attack in overwhelming force, and failed. It tried to beat untrained and poorly equipped volunteers using its best contract soldiers, and failed.

            Russia currently holds a small sliver of eastern Ukraine. It gave up on its last offensive in February 2015 and hasn’t dared to mount one since. Russia is weak.

          10. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Thats why they re trying to involve Poland now. The only snag is that if it attacks Russia, it will be annihilated. Not that the Poles care too much. They ve always been brave.

          11. Avatar Alex George says:

            You clearly do not have the faintest idea what you are talking about.

          12. Avatar туфтуф says:

            You havent seen the tanks stuck in the snow in Poland?

          13. Avatar Alex George says:

            No, and neither have you. Keep blowing wind, old man.

          14. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Wait, the story is not ended yet. There will be no insurrection. Something worse. Total war.

          15. Avatar Alex George says:

            LMAO

            Sure, and volcanos and earthquakes too!

          16. Avatar туфтуф says:

            He is a pure blooded Ukrainian who wants the whole of his land. Separatists are those who want part of it.

          17. Avatar Alex George says:

            Zacharchenko is a separatist. He is just trying to talk big because he knows he is going nowhere except to Russia

          18. Avatar туфтуф says:

            He wants the whole of Ukraine. Separatists are those who want part of it. It comrs from Latin separire, which means to break a piece of something off, or to separate oneself from a greater whole.

          19. Avatar Alex George says:

            He is just a separatist. He is trying to talk big because he knows he is going nowhere except to Russia

          20. Avatar туфтуф says:

            He s FSB. No joke. Otherwise ukroarmy wld not be fighting a rag tag army of Donbass for over 2 yrs now.

          21. Avatar Alex George says:

            Of course he is FSB, but so what?

            Ukraine has been fighting the entire Russian military for three years now, and the Russians have gone nowhere since February 2015. That is because they have lots of shiny equipment, but their soldiers lack courage .

          22. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Entire? Lolz

          23. Avatar Alex George says:

            Of course not the large parts of it which can do nothing except sit in garrison trying to keep track of the world’s largest land mass. ;o)

            Just all of Putin’s best contract soldiers and equipment, everything he could deploy there. But not enough, because they lacked the skill and the courage .

          24. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Entire? Lolx.

          25. Avatar Alex George says:

            Of course not the large parts of it which can do nothing except sit in garrison trying to keep track of the world’s largest land mass. ;o)

            Just all of Putin’s best contract soldiers and equipment, everything he could deploy there. But not enough, because they lacked the skill and the courage .

          26. Avatar туфтуф says:

            How can someone be separatist when they want a unitary Ukraine? Your logic is wrong. Thoughts unclear.

          27. Avatar Alex George says:

            He doesn’t want a unitary Ukraine. he is just mouthing off – typical separatist.

          28. Avatar туфтуф says:

            He had wanted, like Girkin, the whole of ukroland liberated from the very beginning of the war. What kind of separatist wants the whole? Seoaratists per definitionem want a part of something.

          29. Avatar Alex George says:

            No he doesn;t want that at all,. He is just full of hot air, like most separatists.

          30. Avatar туфтуф says:

            If i want te whole of France, u r no separ. If part, u r 1.

          31. Avatar Alex George says:

            No, if you want the whole of France and have no power, you are just a harmless lunatic. Like Zacharchenko

          32. Avatar туфтуф says:

            But he HAS power. Most modern Russian weapons and Russian entire army behind him.

          33. Avatar Alex George says:

            That’s not power – certainly not enough to take any more Ukrainian territory. Hence why the separatist have gone nowhere since the last Russian offensive failed in February 2015.

          34. Avatar туфтуф says:

            I have no doubt that Ukraine wll be whole. But will it be a province of Russia or a buffer like NK remains to be seen.

          35. Avatar Alex George says:

            That is the question – will Russia be a province of Ukraine or a buffer like NK. Remains to be seen .

        2. Avatar туфтуф says:

          They are almost fullly integrated into Russia: passports, health system, education…..done deal. The only thing they need to do is liberate the rest of occupied Ukraine.

          1. Avatar Alex George says:

            They aren’t remotely integrated into Russia, not even the most basic stages. There is no economy and no governance in the Donbas, just bandits each trying to run the criminal side of things, and regularly killing each other to get control of it .

          2. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Sorry, l canot comment on this cus you know too little and it would take too much of my time to explain. Anyway, l have a gut feeling u would end up believing what you want to believe regardless of the truth.

          3. Avatar Alex George says:

            You can’t comment on it because you have no arguments. you know that what I wrote is true: They aren’t remotely integrated into Russia, not even the most basic stages. There is no economy and no governance in the Donbas, just bandits each trying to run the criminal side of things, and regularly killing each other to get control of it

          4. Avatar туфтуф says:

            I got friends on the ground. Am THE source….

          5. Avatar Alex George says:

            Yes, yes, you continually claim to have sources and to have read x or y in newspaper reports.

            Yet somehow you can never provide a single piece of information nor any links to news reports. Ho-hum….

          6. Avatar туфтуф says:

            I have just turned Bezrukov to SBU. The fake “Nadia”.

          7. Avatar туфтуф says:

            I told you lets exchange e mails. You may find them interesting.

          8. Avatar Alex George says:

            Ha ha, what would anyone find interesting from you? you have told many obvious lies, you clearly don’t know anyone or anything, and are just trying to make yourself important.

  3. Avatar Jessi says:

    Totally agree. Let them leave and become part of Russia all they want.

    1. Avatar туфтуф says:

      There is a slight problem: Surkov wants the WHOLE of Ukraine. Galicia, out of all Ukrainian lands, stands the only chance of being “free”. Under Poland.

      1. Avatar Alex George says:

        And what Surkov wants is irrelevant.

        If he wants to do even a fraction of that, he needed a better army, with motivated soldiers.

        1. Avatar туфтуф says:

          DNR soldiers are extremely motivated. I know many of them.

          1. Avatar Alex George says:

            Sorry, but the facts say otherwise. If the Russian army in Donbas was extremely motivated, they would control a lot more of eastern Ukraine than the small sliver which is all they hold.

            They talked big, but once they found enemies who shot back and didn’t give in, their true colours became apparent.

          2. Avatar туфтуф says:

            They dont want to spend a lot, but still control Ukraine. Surkovs plan.

          3. Avatar Alex George says:

            Surkov’s plan is to try to achieve Putin’s aims, but he knows he can’t

          4. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Its a team, rather than P. A KGB team. Serious players. Ukros are choir boys compare to that outfit.

          5. Avatar Alex George says:

            Sorry, but if they were serious players they would have managed this competently. They know they cant hold the Donbas anymore

          6. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Strelkov was in favourof total war against Ukraine. That iswhy Surkov gave him marching orders. That means he has a much more ominous plan. Cold and calculated. He utterly doesnt care how many ppl die. If he isnot taken seriously, it can have serious consequences. On the other hand, serious consequences will happen anyways.

          7. Avatar Alex George says:

            Surkov is an apparatchik and a Putin boot-licker. He does what he is told.

            And his plans are irrelevant, as he does not have the power to make them happen.

          8. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Totally wrong. He is THE most devious man on Earth. P is a choir boy compared to S.

          9. Avatar Alex George says:

            For heavens sake, are you still going on about this, you old windbag?

            Surkov lost all responsibility for Ukraine three months ago. Putin put Kozak in charge of it. You are utterly ignorant.

          10. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Empty stories. But even if true, he lost it to someone even more devious than himself. KGB know what they re doing.

          11. Avatar Alex George says:

            Not empty stories, but your ignorance being put on display, yet again. You can’t even keep up with news that is months old

            And sorry, but FSB very obviously does not know what it is doing, and it was Putin that moved Surkov on.

          12. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Never underestimate the enemy. He may surprise you.

          13. Avatar Alex George says:

            I am not underestimating anyone, just assessing them soberly and factually – Surkov is an apparatchik and a Putin boot-licker. He does what he is told. His plans for Ukraine are irrelevant, as he does not have the power to make them happen. And you don’t know any of the people you claim

          14. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Surkov wouldnt let them. He s calling the shots.

          15. Avatar Alex George says:

            Surkov is Putin’s poodle. He does what he is told, but he can’t call the shots because the Russian army is not good enough.

          16. Avatar туфтуф says:

            To the contrary. Its a team of serioous players. A common misconception in the west is that when P was elected president, it was a triumph of democracy. In reality, it was a coup staged by one of the most dangerous intel agencies in the world. The KGB.

          17. Avatar Alex George says:

            You clearly know nothing about what hte West believes about Putin. But now you are just trying to change the subject. What I wrote was correct: Surkov does what he is told, but he can’t call the shots because the Russian army is not good enough.

          18. Avatar туфтуф says:

            Wrong. Its the Organization. A team.

          19. Avatar Alex George says:

            Sure its a team – one that fails in most thing it attempts.

          20. Avatar туфтуф says:

            We saw how it failed during Dumpfs election. Lol

          21. Avatar Alex George says:

            Yes indeed. They tried to influence the election, and yet again they failed. Nothing new there.

          22. Avatar туфтуф says:

            The investigation headed by Trumps children will show to what extent Russians were involved. He seems to think his boys and girls are more competent than the Firm. Strange man.

          23. Avatar Alex George says:

            LOL Everyone knows that the FSB tried to influence the election, and they failed. As they fail at most things. A pathetic shadow of the former KGB